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Old 01-11-2008, 09:35 PM   #16
bill poster
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Default Re: Ali was overrated

Ok I exaggerated a bit! He wasnt 'owned' by Frazier in the first fight. But I think his career has to be put in context of his opponents and I think his magnetism/character was a great influence on how people rate him. After the Foreman fight he became a stand up comic and he didnt train hard. I didnt like the way he talked about Frazier either. I cringe when I watch Norman Mailer fawning on When we were Kings. I do think he is put on a pedastal/overrated but his achievements outside the ring are truly great.
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Old 01-11-2008, 09:46 PM   #17
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Default Re: Ali was overrated

Quote:
Originally Posted by bill poster
Ok I exaggerated a bit! He wasnt 'owned' by Frazier in the first fight. But I think his career has to be put in context of his opponents and I think his magnetism/character was a great influence on how people rate him. After the Foreman fight he became a stand up comic and he didnt train hard. I didnt like the way he talked about Frazier either. I cringe when I watch Norman Mailer fawning on When we were Kings. I do think he is put on a pedastal/overrated but his achievements outside the ring are truly great.
It could be, or it could be the fact that he has unquestionably the greatest resume in the history of the HW division, and one of the best of all time period. And the fact that he faced and beat all top notch challengers in his day(which happened to be the greatest era for HW boxing), which noone else I can think of can lay claim to.

#1 all time HW, #5 all time P4P.
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Old 01-11-2008, 09:47 PM   #18
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Default Re: Ali was overrated

Misinformed, ignorant thread!
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Old 01-11-2008, 09:49 PM   #19
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Default Re: Ali was overrated

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweet Pea
#1 all time HW, #5 all time P4P.
No arguements here. Sensible placements.
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Old 01-11-2008, 10:16 PM   #20
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Default Re: Ali was overrated

ALI OVER-RATED??
DAMN GET THE HELL OUT OF HERE
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Old 01-11-2008, 10:38 PM   #21
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Default Re: Ali was overrated

I think a very strong case can be made for Ali as #1 P4P, although I suspect the ESB board will not support me here!

My reasons:

1) Talent pool. The Open Mens division in any sport is rightfully the most prestigious. In boxing, this is the HWs - it pits the best boxers in the world against each other, irrespective of size and see who comes out on top. For me, and for this reason, the HW champ has achieved more than the champs in the 'niche' divisions.

2) Prime performances. I think Ali's performance against Williams in '66 was a sublime, balletic work of art. So beautifully crafted it almost looks choreographed. Other posters have argued Williams was so terrible any ATG HW could have done a similar job.

I strongly disagree, Lennox Lewis (not a big favorite of mine!) could not look anything like that (moving so gracefully and swiftly, engaging when necessary, avoiding punches, landing blistering combinations) even with an inanimate punching bag in front of him! More telling, neither could a boxer from a smaller division, where strength to weight ratios are more favorable.

3) Force-of-nature athleticism. Ali's athleticism relative to his size is unique. I have never seen even a close second (from any sport) in tems of overall athleticism although others approach for specific comparisons (e.g. Tysons hand speed was tremendous).

An aside, Jona Lomu, the NZ rugby player might possibly be argued to be a reasonable equivalent to Ali, as at 110 kg he was able to side step and outsprint much smaller men (as well as trample over the top of them) but I digress...If anyone know of another 'athlete' like Ali with such athleticism relative to large size, I would love to hear more.

4) Longevity. Relative to other HWs (which is the division where the most brutal punishment is dished out), 70 fights over 20 years is astounding.

5) Quality of opposition. Ali fought and relished fighting the very best his division had to offer, in an exceptionally tough competitive era, and anyone who gave him problems were given multiple rematches. This does not apply to SRR for example.

6) Mental fortitude and will-to-win. Ali never gave up, and rose to the challenge time and again under the most harrowing conditions. The 3rd Frazier fight the most obvious example, but there are others. The Holmes fight was horrific and for him to not throw the towel in in those circumstances beggars belief.

7) Resourcefulness. Ali was brilliant at finding new ways to win when he athleticism began to decline. The Foreman fight being the best known example, as well as a masterclass in psychological warfare.

So, for my money Ali is P4P1. If other posters can find those 7 qualities in SRR (or whoever there #1 happens to be) to the same extent as Ali, I would be interested to know more.

Likewise, any other criteria of interest that you view to be important...



Quote:
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No arguements here. Sensible placements.
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Old 01-11-2008, 10:49 PM   #22
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Default Re: Ali was overrated

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Originally Posted by NickHudson
3) Force-of-nature athleticism. Ali's athleticism relative to his size is unique. I have never seen even a close second (from any sport) in tems of overall athleticism although others approach for specific comparisons (e.g. Tysons hand speed was tremendous).
You think Ali was more athletic than Michael Jordan?
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Old 01-11-2008, 11:27 PM   #23
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Default Re: Ali was overrated

Michael Jordon would not make it into my top 50 all time athletes (where athlete refers to pure athleticism as opposed to sportsman - as a sportsman he has a shot at TOP10 all time).

In terms of power / explosive athletes alone he is behind every 100m, 200m, 400m, Long Jump and Triple Jump Olympic gold medallists of the last 40 years.

I concede that a lot, but not all, of US explosive athletic talent goes into basketball.

But this is not a global phenomenon; the Chinese, South American, African and European athletic talent gets filtered into other sports and MJ might be lucky he does not have to compete against them on the basket ball court...

The longest triple jump ever recorded, after 100 years of standardised measuring, with athletes of every conceivable ethnicity including the best of the USA taking part, is held by a skinny, white englishman and stands at 18.29m.



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You think Ali was more athletic than Michael Jordan?
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Old 01-12-2008, 12:29 AM   #24
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Default Re: Ali was overrated

Ali's almost as overrated as Bill Poster's avatar lady.
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Old 01-12-2008, 03:41 AM   #25
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Default Re: Ali was overrated

Quote:
Originally Posted by NickHudson
Michael Jordon would not make it into my top 50 all time athletes (where athlete refers to pure athleticism as opposed to sportsman - as a sportsman he has a shot at TOP10 all time).

In terms of power / explosive athletes alone he is behind every 100m, 200m, 400m, Long Jump and Triple Jump Olympic gold medallists of the last 40 years.

I concede that a lot, but not all, of US explosive athletic talent goes into basketball.

But this is not a global phenomenon; the Chinese, South American, African and European athletic talent gets filtered into other sports and MJ might be lucky he does not have to compete against them on the basket ball court...

The longest triple jump ever recorded, after 100 years of standardised measuring, with athletes of every conceivable ethnicity including the best of the USA taking part, is held by a skinny, white englishman and stands at 18.29m.
Yet you do think Ali is more athletic than all of them?
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Old 01-12-2008, 03:45 AM   #26
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Default Re: Ali was overrated

Oddly enough, he is "still" being overrated. One would think his terrible boxing skills would be recognised in the next decade... who knows lol

Ali is at least top 3 at HW.
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Old 01-12-2008, 05:13 AM   #27
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Default Re: Ali was overrated

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweet Pea
Yet you do think Ali is more athletic than all of them?

He's definitely one who's overrating Ali. I had a feeling this thread might get embarrassing.
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Old 01-12-2008, 05:23 AM   #28
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Default Re: Ali was overrated

Quote:
Originally Posted by NickHudson
5) Quality of opposition. Ali fought and relished fighting the very best his division had to offer, in an exceptionally tough competitive era, and anyone who gave him problems were given multiple rematches. This does not apply to SRR for example.

Can you give examples here of 'problem' opponents given (and not given) rematches...


...also I'd say SRR at least equals or surpasses Ali in virtually every category you named, with exception of athleticism (if weight is taken into account). The two areas which he definitely comes out ahead are: longevity- how about 200 fights over 25 years? And 'resourcefullness'. Not only was he winning the middlweight title far past his best he was actually deserving the decisions.
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Old 01-12-2008, 05:26 AM   #29
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Default Re: Ali was overrated

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Originally Posted by sthomas
Ali alltime #1. Also, how many great fighters did he duck during his career?

Foreman rematch. Mandatory contender for almost all 2nd reign. Although, it's true that overall he was hardly a mallard.
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Old 01-12-2008, 06:22 AM   #30
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Default Re: Ali was overrated

Well, I guess I think 20 years at HW is better than 25 years at the niche weight classes given the extra punishment that gets shipped at HW.

SRR did not fight all the best of his era, much has been written about this on ESB over the last few months.

I would be interestd in your case that SRR was as resourceful as Ali, as it seems to me that the difference in style and athleticism between 64 Ali and 78 Ali (inlcuding the medical conditions) was greater than the differences exhibited by SRR over his career, and therefore Ai had more to overcome.


Quote:
Originally Posted by My dinner with Conteh
Can you give examples here of 'problem' opponents given (and not given) rematches...


...also I'd say SRR at least equals or surpasses Ali in virtually every category you named, with exception of athleticism (if weight is taken into account). The two areas which he definitely comes out ahead are: longevity- how about 200 fights over 25 years? And 'resourcefullness'. Not only was he winning the middlweight title far past his best he was actually deserving the decisions.
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