Is this true? Saskul vs. Pacquiao was for the lineal 112 title. Explain.

[Nonito Smoak]

The general consensus and the often repeated statement is that Manny Pacquiao won the flyweight lineal title when he defeated Chatchai Sasakul in 1998. Before you say "of course he was" based on hearsay, please check out this timeline.

This was in the years where The Ring did not declare Ring Champions, so one must look at the rankings for that year. The Ring recognized the #1 and #2 as lineal champions while not giving a belt.

Flyweight rankings during 1990's:
[URL="********boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine%27s_Annual_Ratings:_Flyweight--1990s"]********boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine%27s_Annual_Ratings:_Flyweight--1990s[/URL]

The consensus top flyweight thru 1998 was Mark Johnson, whom moved up to 115 lbs in his April 1999 fight.

Sasakul, listed in the above link as "Chatchai Gym" was #2 behind Johnson at the end of the 1997 calendar year.

Pacquiao's only win to get him on the list would be over Chockvivat in 1997. Chockvivat never ranked higher than Ring #10 at the weight.

Going into their 1998 showdown, Sasakul was the Ring #2 ranked flyweight while Pacquiao was somewhere maybe in the top 10, maybe not. If someone has the relevant Ring Mag issues from 1998, please clarify this.

At the end of the 1998 year, Ring magazine ranked Pacquiao #1 and Sasakul dropped to #4 after the loss to Pac. However, these rankings excluded Mark Johnson as he was now about to campaign at 115 lbs.

Here are Johnson, Sasakul, and Pacquiao's boxrec's, respectively:
[URL]********boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=003240&cat=boxer[/URL]
[URL]********boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=4088&cat=boxer[/URL]
[URL]********boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=6129&cat=boxer[/URL]

So, please explain if you believe Sasakul vs. Pacquiao was for the lineal title, technically speaking and in your opinion.

My answers would be: No and No, but perhaps the postings of month by month rankings and justifications by The Ring would make me change my mind on the former. Edit: Obviously, the lineage is very legitimate. I had a hard time tracing back and honestly feel foolish for starting the thread. It is a very interesting lineage to trace though... Go Canto! Go Pacquiao!

[WhataRock]

He won it from Sasakul, who won it from Arbachakov, who won it from Kittikasem, who won it from Chitalada...etc etc...any way eventually down that line you will find Canto, who is as deserving of the distinction as anyone.

For the record, Manny didn't beat the best flyweight in the world at the time IMO.

[Nonito Smoak]

Originally Posted by WhataRock

He won it from Sasakul, who won it from Arbachakov, who won it from Kittikasem, who won it from Chitalada...etc etc...any way eventually down that line you will find Canto, who is as deserving of the distinction as anyone.

Got ya.

A true deep back lineage and nonetheless interesting and rare case. Odd that it followed the WBC title the whole way, and that it stuck the whole way without any of the holders retiring or moving up in weight...

[Nonito Smoak]

I just traced the lineage on boxrec. It is nuts! Literally about 20 guys, including a four fight consecutive streak of surrendering it to the first challenger and a few occasions where the fighter who lost it re-matched twice to get it back and never came closer than a draw.

[KOTF]

Title went to Canto-Oguma winner, here's the line:

Canto < Park < Oguma < Avelar < Avelar < Cardona < Castillo < Mercedes < Magri < Cedeno < Kobayashi (not the hot dog eater) < Bernal < Chitalada < Kim (now at this point The Ring stops awarding belts) < Chitalada < Kittikasem < Arbachakov < Sasakul < Pacquiao

What they should have done was give Canto the title when Betulio Gonzalez (a fighter Canto beat) wins the WBA belt. That's how Larry Holmes got the HW title; Holmes KO'ed Mike Weaver, who in turn, KO'ed WBA champ John Tate.

[WhataRock]

Well its just the way it worked out because when that new lineage began Canto was holding the WBC belt...the WBA belt was mostly held or contested by guys he had already bested...was kind of like the silver medal belt at the time.

Several guys were short time holders and thai fighters tend to hold on like grim death to the belts they get...which from memory has been the nationality of the lineal title holder for most of those years since.

I don't really care that much about lineal...certainly does not mean you are the best in the division.

[PIPO23]

Yeah, but the beauty of that win was Pacquiao was 19 and you have to KO, i repeat KO, i repeat KO the Thai boxer to win.

Thais at it again.They robbed a Filipino boxer of a championship.Thai boxer was rocked and fight was stopped because of a small cut.

hahaha

[PIPO23]

[ame]***********.youtube.com/watch?v=ssPEB9kU8c8&feature=g-vrec[/ame]

One of the youngest champs. Tell me of a 19 year skinny champ that went to robbery

capital of the world (Thailand) and not leave at the hands of the judge!

[Florez]

Originally Posted by PIPO23

[URL]***********.youtube.com/watch?v=ssPEB9kU8c8&feature=g-vrec[/URL]

One of the youngest champs. Tell me of a 19 year skinny champ that went to robbery

capital of the world (Thailand) and not leave at the hands of the judge!

[PinoyProdigy]

Originally Posted by PIPO23

[url]***********.youtube.com/watch?v=ssPEB9kU8c8&feature=g-vrec[/url]

One of the youngest champs. Tell me of a 19 year skinny champ that went to robbery

capital of the world (Thailand) and not leave at the hands of the judge!

watching this truly never gets old!

[Mr. Sandman]

Originally Posted by PIPO23

[URL]***********.youtube.com/watch?v=ssPEB9kU8c8&feature=g-vrec[/URL]

One of the youngest champs. Tell me of a 19 year skinny champ that went to robbery

capital of the world (Thailand) and not leave at the hands of the judge!

Still amazes me that those flyweights could take his punches down there.