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Old 05-12-2012, 11:23 PM   #1
Saintpat
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Default Thrilla in Manilla question

If Joe Frazier doesn't retire on his stool, what happens?

Does Ali knock him out?

Does Frazier dig deep and connect with a game-changing punch to take Ali out?

Does Ali pour it on and win the round big, and a decision?

Any chance Smokin' Joe outworks The Greatest to take the round?

I should know this, but can anyone explain the scorecards: 66-60, 66-62 and 67-62. I assume that's 5-point must, but how does it break down?
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Old 05-12-2012, 11:28 PM   #2
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Default Re: Thrilla in Manilla question

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Originally Posted by Saintpat View Post
If Joe Frazier doesn't retire on his stool, what happens?

Does Ali knock him out?

Does Frazier dig deep and connect with a game-changing punch to take Ali out?

Does Ali pour it on and win the round big, and a decision?

Any chance Smokin' Joe outworks The Greatest to take the round?

I should know this, but can anyone explain the scorecards: 66-60, 66-62 and 67-62. I assume that's 5-point must, but how does it break down?
Between the two, Frazier was far more gassed than Ali. That's clear from the way Ali swatted Frazier in the final rounds.

Here's the breakdown:

66-60: This means 10 rounds for Ali, and 4 for Frazier
66-62: This means 8 rounds for Ali, 4 for Frazier, and 2 even
67-62: This means 8 rounds for Ali, 3 for Frazier, and 3 even

Personally, I would have given Frazier more like 5 or 6 rounds. I remember on my card (the several times I've watched it) Ali was ahead by 2 or 3 points at most after 14 rounds.
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Old 05-12-2012, 11:29 PM   #3
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Default Re: Thrilla in Manilla question

I'm sure you know also that a "5 point must" system gives 5 points to the winner of a round, and 4 points to the loser. In the event of an even round, each guy gets 5 points.
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Old 05-12-2012, 11:37 PM   #4
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Default Re: Thrilla in Manilla question

Thanks. I do understand the 5-point must. I assume you only get 5-3 or 5-2 with knockdowns or a complete beat down in a particular round, same as a 10-8 or 10-7 in the 10-point must.
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Old 05-12-2012, 11:41 PM   #5
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Default Re: Thrilla in Manilla question

Ali did collapse in the ring shortly after he realized Futch had stopped it.

What does that mean? Im not sure but its something to consider.

Was it just relief? Did he hit the wall the way SRR did against Joey Maxim? Remember Ali took alot of body punches from a pitbull for the first 11 rounds that day. Extreme heat.

Then you throw in the fact that Ali had just thrown so many punches in the 13th and 14th rounds that its very possible that he was done physically.

Im sure he would come out. They both wouldve continued in the 15th.

I think knowing Ali feinted in the center of the ring haunted Joe for the rest of his life. In his mind he believes he wouldve won the title back.

Anyway the fight turned out the way it was meant to turn out. Eddie did the right thing.
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Old 05-12-2012, 11:58 PM   #6
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Thanks. I do understand the 5-point must. I assume you only get 5-3 or 5-2 with knockdowns or a complete beat down in a particular round, same as a 10-8 or 10-7 in the 10-point must.
Correct.

Very rarely did officials score a 5-3 round without a knockdown. Officials are much the same today, in that they're reluctant to deduct points from the loser unless there are knockdowns.
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Old 05-13-2012, 12:02 AM   #7
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Ali did collapse in the ring shortly after he realized Futch had stopped it.

What does that mean? Im not sure but its something to consider.

Was it just relief? Did he hit the wall the way SRR did against Joey Maxim? Remember Ali took alot of body punches from a pitbull for the first 11 rounds that day. Extreme heat.

Then you throw in the fact that Ali had just thrown so many punches in the 13th and 14th rounds that its very possible that he was done physically.

Im sure he would come out. They both wouldve continued in the 15th.

I think knowing Ali feinted in the center of the ring haunted Joe for the rest of his life. In his mind he believes he wouldve won the title back.

Anyway the fight turned out the way it was meant to turn out. Eddie did the right thing.
You are raising an interesting point, as Ali was exhausted. But Frazier was exhausted and punished: he absorbed all the leather in the 14th. I question if Frazier could even have punched effectively had he fought one more round.
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Old 05-13-2012, 12:30 AM   #8
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Default Re: Thrilla in Manilla question

Frazier was battered so savagely in the 13th and 14th rounds I think Ali being dead tired is a moot point. Futch did the right thing in stopping the fight. Frazier was practically blind and beaten to a pulp. Letting him out for the 15th makes it human ****fighting and gives credence to those who want to ban the sweet science.
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Old 05-13-2012, 01:56 AM   #9
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Default Re: Thrilla in Manilla question

Both Ali and Frazier were at their ends. I think Dundee would have had the sense that Ali was a head and told him to stay away. Had Futch not stopped the bout he would have the sense that Frazier had to at the very least win the round to win and sent Fraizer out on the attack. I don't think Ali had the enegery to move for 3 minnuets. He would hold Fraizer trying not to let him work. I don't recall the scores, but I think Ali was a head by emnough that aall he needed to do was make it out of the round on his feet to win. Short of a sttoppage which was possible considerig what Ali had left. Was the only way Fraizer was going to win.
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Old 05-13-2012, 02:36 AM   #10
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Default Re: Thrilla in Manilla question

To be clear, I'm not questioning the judgment of Eddie Futch in this situation. He made the right call, of that I have no doubt.

I'm posing this as a 'what if,' not suggesting Joe should have continued. I recall the gloves seemed to be waterlogged, so the impact was far greater than normal.
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Old 05-13-2012, 02:36 AM   #11
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Default Re: Thrilla in Manilla question

Let me go get my crystal ball and I'll tell you 100% what would've happened. One sec...
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Old 05-13-2012, 05:15 AM   #12
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Default Re: Thrilla in Manilla question

Carlos Padilla, a scoring referee in this one, had Ali ahead by the widest margin of any of the three officials. He escorted Joe back to his corner at the conclusion of round 14, and has stated on camera that he'd have allowed Smoke about 45 seconds to rally before stopping the action and awarding the match to Muhammad. So, there you have it: Ali W TKO 15 Frazier, time: 0:45. Muhammad's vision was not impaired in any way, while Joe couldn't see.

Frazier cornerman Milt Bailey said they were both reduced to virtually slapping at this point. A blind Smoke was not going to rally against an opponent who opened the year by collapsing after stopping Wepner in the final seconds of round 15, and had finished fresh despite doing most of the work over the championship distance in the scorching daytime heat of Kuala Lumpur against Bugner just three months earlier. Given those previous performances over that limit during 1975 by Muhammad, Joe's chances of somehow stopping him within another three minutes were zilch. It was now going all the other way.
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Old 05-13-2012, 05:56 AM   #13
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Default Re: Thrilla in Manilla question

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Originally Posted by Saintpat View Post
To be clear, I'm not questioning the judgment of Eddie Futch in this situation. He made the right call, of that I have no doubt.

I'm posing this as a 'what if,' not suggesting Joe should have continued. I recall the gloves seemed to be waterlogged, so the impact was far greater than normal.
I think the ref would have rescued Frazier in the last round ,he was completely done.
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Old 05-13-2012, 11:50 PM   #14
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I think the ref would have rescued Frazier in the last round ,he was completely done.
Both men were completely done.

I would argue that Joe had a bit more left in his tank but not on his shield. Vision was a problem for him because both of his eyes nearly swollen shut. His heart wanted to him continue. I don't think Ali had anything left in his tank to answer the final bell if the fight were allowed to go on. The evidence is there seconds after Frazier's corner stopped the fight. Whether it was a collapse, feint, mini-stroke, or fall down in relief of the fight being over, Ali was on his back and had to be helped to his feet. I will say that I think Ali's own fighting heart would have edged him out for the fifteenth against Frazier. I could see Angelo encouraging him while Pacheco shakes his head in the corner hoping the two don't kill each other.

The argument will live forever on ESSB about the round he was said to have wanted his gloves cut off. Willie Monroe said he heard him quit after unloading everything he had against Joe in the 14th, albeit with more expletive terms.

It both men were allowed to continue, Joe would be real close to fighting on instinct with very little vision and Ali would likely do his best to hold and land whatever shots he had the strength left to throw.
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Old 05-14-2012, 12:01 AM   #15
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You are raising an interesting point, as Ali was exhausted. But Frazier was exhausted and punished: he absorbed all the leather in the 14th. I question if Frazier could even have punched effectively had he fought one more round.
I agree. Frazier`s power was gone by the 13th. But if Ali feinted in the 15th it wouldnt have mattered. Remember Joey Maxim never layed a glove on Sugar Ray Robinson yet when Ray hit the wall he hit the wall.
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