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Old 05-14-2012, 01:32 PM   #31
ETM
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Default Re: Thrilla in Manilla question

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Originally Posted by Bill Butcher View Post
He voluntarily sat down because he was gassed, a bit different from colapsing.



He decided to lay on the floor? Voluntarily? If he had a choice I would think that he mightve choose to sit on a stool.

Frazier definitley took more punishment to the head but that body attack Joe committed to from the 1st bell on mightve been more damaging in the long run.

I dont know what wouldve happened in the 15th but I do believe both of these warriors wouldve come out to fight.
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Old 05-16-2012, 12:04 AM   #32
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Default Re: Thrilla in Manilla question

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post



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Aloi did collapse, it was witnessed, reported and is in recent documentary on him and Frazier. So smack your head all you want. If you are going to argue or debate on message board, try and learn that you are talking about first.
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Old 05-16-2012, 03:40 AM   #33
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Default Re: Thrilla in Manilla question

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Originally Posted by Danmann View Post
Aloi did collapse, it was witnessed, reported and is in recent documentary on him and Frazier. So smack your head all you want. If you are going to argue or debate on message board, try and learn that you are talking about first.

When Ali knew Frazier was not coming out for the last round, he voluntarily went to the floor to escape all the hoo ha. I saw the fight as it happened and have seen it probably a dozen times since.

Ali began to retake control in the 13th round ,landing solidly on Frazier who throws arm punches.

Between the 13th ,and 14 rds Frazier's corner administer smelling salts to him.
Frazier comec forward in the 14th rd but he is ineffectual, his power is gone, he trundles forward into flush lead right hands, and is badly hurt in the middle of the round ,forced to back off. His corner again give him smelling salts at the end of the round. Futch calls it off. Ali stands up, raises his arm in ackowledgement of victory, then sits on a stool to escape the crowd around him.

Watch the footage, THEN comment.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRth-5w0Lt8[/ame]


If you want to lecture, perhaps you should learn to spell Ali's name right first?


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Get the drift?

Last edited by mcvey; 05-24-2012 at 04:40 AM.
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Old 05-18-2012, 12:25 AM   #34
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Default Re: Thrilla in Manilla question

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
When Ali knew Frazier was not coming out for the last round, he voluntarily went to the floor to escape all the hoo ha. I saw the fight as it happened and have seen it probably a dozen times since.

Ali began to retake control in the 13th round ,landing solidly on Frazier who throws arm punches.

Between the 13th ,and 14 rds Frazier's corner administer smelling slats to him.
Frazier's come forward in the 14th rd but he is ineffectual, his power is gone he trundles forward into flush lead right hands, and is badly hurt in the middle of the round ,forced to back off. His corner again give him smelling salts at the end of the round. Futch calls it off. Ali stands up, raises his arm in ackowledgement of victory, then sits on a stool to escape the crowd around him.

Watch the footage, THEN comment.
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If you want to lecture, perhaps you should learn to spell Ali's name right first?


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Get the drift?
At the time Ali's people made up story o him collapsing to escape crowd, story was bullshit, they admitted it few years ago, and it's on the documentary about Frazier, in their own words. Ali passed out when he got up, it's fact. He also tried to quit after 11th round. It was heard by ringside reporters, written about, and now people, (Lie you) want it forgotten.
Ge the drift?
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Old 05-18-2012, 04:47 AM   #35
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Default Re: Thrilla in Manilla question

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Originally Posted by Danmann View Post
At the time Ali's people made up story o him collapsing to escape crowd, story was bullshit, they admitted it few years ago, and it's on the documentary about Frazier, in their own words. Ali passed out when he got up, it's fact. He also tried to quit after 11th round. It was heard by ringside reporters, written about, and now people, (Lie you) want it forgotten.
Ge the drift?
I want nothing forgotten.

I posted the last two rounds of the fight.


I responded to your assertion in your first post, below.


"Ali collapsed when he tried to stand. If Frazier had stood up for round 15, fight was his. ".

Because it is fan boy bullshit.



Ali had won the 13th clearly ,and had a huge 14th rd ,hitting Frazier solidly with lead right hands that Frazier could not see coming.
If all Frazier had to do was answer the bell for the 15th to win the fight ,don't you think Eddie Futch, one of the greatest trainers, and strategists , would have sent him out to do so?
Ali did not collapse when he tried to stand, he went to the floor after he learned the fight was over. See the difference?
When Ali learned Frazier had retired in his corner, he immediately stood up and raised his arms . IT'S ON THE FILM!

Post a primary source that proves ,"Ali 's people" said that otherwise it's just more of your fan boy crap.

A documentary about Frazier is hardly an impartial source is it?

The referee, Carlos Padilla , said he was prepared to let Frazier go for about 45 seconds into the last round, then he would have stopped it.
He made this statement ON FILM.

Padilla also scored in the fight, he had Ali 66 to 60 in front.

Question
1. As Frazier was clearly behind, how was he going to win the fight unless he could stop ALI?

2. Frazier had shown in the two previous rounds he no longer had the strength to throw a ko punch, ,so how was he going to win the fight?

Conclusion ,your hero worship has clouded your already suspect judgement ,and objectivity ,to the extent you make ludicrous statements that have no basis in reality, and you produce no primary sources to confirm their veracity.
You might want to take on board the excellent Don Dunphy's remark from ringside at the end of the 14th, "Frazier was a punch or two of going down".

Do yourself a favour and watch the fight , forget about who the participants are, just watch it as two boxers, then at the end, draw your own conclusions. If they are still the same as now , you belong in the General Lounge , not here .

Last edited by mcvey; 05-24-2012 at 04:42 AM.
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Old 05-18-2012, 09:15 PM   #36
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Default Re: Thrilla in Manilla question

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Originally Posted by Saintpat View Post
If Joe Frazier doesn't retire on his stool, what happens?

Does Ali knock him out?

Does Frazier dig deep and connect with a game-changing punch to take Ali out?

Does Ali pour it on and win the round big, and a decision?

Any chance Smokin' Joe outworks The Greatest to take the round?

I should know this, but can anyone explain the scorecards: 66-60, 66-62 and 67-62. I assume that's 5-point must, but how does it break down?


Ali was much given to hyperbolae and bluster on occasion.

"Next to me, Joe's the greatest HW of all time." etc.

If there had been a 15th round, given how the 14th went, IMO the most likely outcome would have been a ref or corner stoppage of Joe.

Joe had nothing left offensively, was nearly blind, and would have been a sitting duck for the coup de grace.
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Old 05-19-2012, 04:34 AM   #37
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Default Re: Thrilla in Manilla question

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Originally Posted by cuchulain View Post
Ali was much given to hyperbolae and bluster on occasion.

"Next to me, Joe's the greatest HW of all time." etc.

If there had been a 15th round, given how the 14th went, IMO the most likely outcome would have been a ref or corner stoppage of Joe.

Joe had nothing left offensively, was nearly blind, and would have been a sitting duck for the coup de grace.
That's it. In a nutshell.
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Old 05-19-2012, 06:41 AM   #38
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Default Re: Thrilla in Manilla question

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Originally Posted by Saintpat View Post
If Joe Frazier doesn't retire on his stool, what happens?

Does Ali knock him out?

Does Frazier dig deep and connect with a game-changing punch to take Ali out?

Does Ali pour it on and win the round big, and a decision?

Any chance Smokin' Joe outworks The Greatest to take the round?

I should know this, but can anyone explain the scorecards: 66-60, 66-62 and 67-62. I assume that's 5-point must, but how does it break down?
Watched this the other night, Ali was spent physically, he had spent his energy trying to finish Frazier in the 3 last rounds, Frazier lost and was on his feet still willing to fight, Ali had won and just collapsed, Ali admitted he was about to give up anyway.

No doubt Ali was winning the fight, by winning the 3 proceeding rounds big, but he had almost punched himself out.

Who knows??
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Old 05-19-2012, 06:53 AM   #39
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Default Re: Thrilla in Manilla question

The only reason Ali colapsed was beacuse it was over it was finally over. He would have won that fight either or.
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Old 05-19-2012, 08:33 AM   #40
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Default Re: Thrilla in Manilla question

The story is...or was...that Ali was yelling for them to cut the gloves off...he was done...while Joe was willing to fight on...but that Eddie Futch said no to Joe...it was a question of which corner acted first...in this case...it was Frazier's...
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Old 05-19-2012, 12:10 PM   #41
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Default Re: Thrilla in Manilla question

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Originally Posted by orriray59 View Post
He didn't ****ing collapse, he stood up, raised his arm and walked around for a few seconds then sat on the canvas because he was tired and it was a tremendous moment for him.

Seriously, some of you guys try to exaggerate things way too much.
He asked Dundee to stop it, then Futch called it off then collapsed, I watched the fight just last week, to be fair he got up and gave a very vague interview. he was winning no doubt, i think he would have coasted through the 15th knowing he was ahead, dude was nackard.
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Old 05-20-2012, 10:35 PM   #42
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Default Re: Thrilla in Manilla question

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The story is...or was...that Ali was yelling for them to cut the gloves off...he was done...while Joe was willing to fight on...but that Eddie Futch said no to Joe...it was a question of which corner acted first...in this case...it was Frazier's...
Padilla went to the corner of the loser of the 14th round first. Frazier. That's the referee's job because Ali won the round convincingly and came close to putting Joe down with everything he had left. Padilla's job was to protect both fighters and Joe took some of Ali's heaviest intended shots of his career in that round. Don't know if they had all of his strength and snap behind them because the body work that Joe did for a lot of the fight had affected Ali's punches. Body punches are taxing on the legs and it takes away from the overall power of the opponents punches with repeated absorption. Joe landed a lot of body shots on Ali in Manilla.

Pacheco has said on numerous occasions that Ali was totally exhausted after the round and wanted to quit right there. Willie Monroe was at ringside in Ali's corner and verified it. It was then that Pacheco looked over to Frazier's corner and saw Eddie motioning to Padilla to stop the fight, so they continued to work on Ali in the corner as if to send him out for the last round. Whether you believe who had more intent to go out for the 15th round and finish the fight is debatable. What is known that the commentary clearly stated what the television and ringside audience saw which was Ali on his back, perhaps in relief that the fight was over. In the other corner moments before, Futch had to sit Joe down who was willing to "go out on his shield," and tell him that the fight was over.

If Joe was allowed to continue, I can't see how Ali wouldn't find the courage to finish the fight too. Dundee would have edged him on, maybe with a bit more reluctance from Pacheco while Brown rhymed away. Ali's war with Frazier was about the championship of each other and I think both men would have risked all of it in the last round. Thankfully it didn't happen. As much as some say Ali would have killed Frazier, or a fatality was close, who's to say that Ali would have been able to take another body shot from Frazier or hook to the head?
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Old 05-21-2012, 08:38 AM   #43
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Default Re: Thrilla in Manilla question

If he can get up, raise his arms, and walk around, he could have gotten up and thrown a couple of punches, at which point Carlos Padilla has said he would have stopped the fight.

He went to the canvas atleast ten seconds after standing to raise his arms. It is DAMN possible for a massive adrenal, emotional drain to begin the second an ordeal is over.

The man walked through hell with his greatest rival and clearly won the fight, because he ended it on top, with the greatest trainer ever saving his man from the champion's fists. That's a big moment. With a high level of exhaustion? Yeah, I'd sit down too.

People make a ton out of this out of love for Joe Frazier, and I get that, but WATCH THE FIGHT. Ali gets up to celebrate his victory. Frazier takes a beating in the 14th and pulls out. That's what happened, and that is what counts. Joe had no miracles in him for the 15th, the referee was looking to call the fight anyway.
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Old 05-21-2012, 09:04 AM   #44
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Default Re: Thrilla in Manilla question

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Originally Posted by cuchulain View Post
Ali was much given to hyperbolae and bluster on occasion.

"Next to me, Joe's the greatest HW of all time." etc.

If there had been a 15th round, given how the 14th went, IMO the most likely outcome would have been a ref or corner stoppage of Joe.

Joe had nothing left offensively, was nearly blind, and would have been a sitting duck for the coup de grace.
Agreed. Joe was spent at the end of the 14th...he was blinded and stumbing. He could have made it out for another round, hell maybe even survived the round, but he was a spent force.
Pride alone held him up.
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Old 05-23-2012, 07:52 PM   #45
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Default Re: Thrilla in Manilla question

The Thrilla in Manilla thing was posted numerous time in the classic.And it's reply were more or less the same.

For those who are ardent fans of Joe Frazier and watch the HBO documentary Thrilla in Manilla,believe that Ali wanted to quit and Joe would've dropped Ali in the 15th.

For those who are ardent fans of Muhammad Ali and believe what Dundee explain,believe that Ali would've won that fight if it goes to the scorecards anyway.

This would be a never-ending debate.But here's some quote from the poster with the "Thrilla in Manilla" title thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokaj View Post
I think it's shit. It makes for a very good story, but on the expense of reality. A couple of examples:

1. They stated early on that Frazier supported Ali's stand on Vietnam. In fact he's always been critical of Ali's refusal to go to war and also consistently referred to Ali as Clay, already in the 60's. He clearly didn't respect Ali's "anti-establishement" stand/persona and showed so very clearly. But the doc. wants us to believe that Joe was a comrade in arms.

2. They make a big deal out of Ali's holding in the rematch and how Perez allowed it, but don't even mention how Perez cut the second round short when Joe was in big trouble.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki View Post
If its heresay, its not evidence.Doesnt mean shit. Nobody is saying Ali is superhuman. He wasn't. He struggled against Frazier, and when Frazier was at his strongest, failed to beat him. Ali wasn't anywhere near ready physically, but I think he wanted that victory as much if not more than any other in his whole career, and he couldn't beat Joe that night. Maybe he never could have beat the Joe from FOTC.

That said, champions don't quit on their stools when they are inflicting SCARY punishment on their opponents. I cant think of one fight in history where it happened. Ali is perhaps the strongest willed heavyweight EVER. His resume is literally an encyclopedia of winning when the chips are down. Your telling me he's gonna give up when the chips are very much up?

No way. Tough fight? One of the toughest. But the guy thats clearly winning it and setting up to stop his opponent brutally is not gonna decide "I'm tired" and pack it in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokaj View Post
You got this wrong. You prove that things happened, not that they didn't happen.

Nothing was said about Ali wanting to quit after the fight, no one at ringside reported such a thing. It wasn't until Willie "The Worm" Monroe came out of the woodworks 15 years later that that urban myth was created.
Personally,I've actually persisted in the view that Ali had wanted to cut off his gloves,because that's what I've been told by most boxing fans around me.

The thing that change my view about the "cut em off" myth in Manilla was when I watch Muhammad Ali's last championship fight with Larry Holmes.Watching that Muhammad Ali getting pounded and losing every round against a prime Larry Holmes and still manage to last 10 rounds with him.Angelo Dundee actually had to yell at Bundini to forced Ali to stop the fight.It makes me think that Ali persisted on continuing the fight with Larry Holmes while he was losing badly,why would he quit against Frazier when he was winning?

Last edited by suriamarsuli; 05-23-2012 at 08:15 PM.
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