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Old 05-24-2012, 02:31 AM   #46
ETM
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Default Re: Thrilla in Manilla question

Wali Muhammad who was in Ali`s corner. From Ali "His Life and Times"

"After the 14th round, Ali came back to the corner and told us "CUT EM OFF" Thats how tired he was. And Angelo ignored him."

Thomas Hauser later confirmed this with Ali himself before he wrote his book.

So Willie the Worm heard him say it. Wali Muhammad heard him say it. And Ali himself admitted to saying it.

Yet its still a debate?

Only in a Muhammad Ali thread.
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Old 05-24-2012, 02:38 AM   #47
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Default Re: Thrilla in Manilla question

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Originally Posted by suriamarsuli View Post

why would he quit against Frazier when he was winning?
1. It was 100 degrees or more that day maybe more with the ring lights and all those people packed in there.

2. It was the 15th round of the fastest paced most vicious heavyweight fight ever seen by many.

3. Ali might have been "winning" but he had taken a brutal beating to the body and head especially in the middle rounds up to the 11th. It was one of the most relentless body assaults a man has ever taken in a prize ring.

4. The Larry Holmes fight was a waltz and Holmes was trying like hell to carry Ali that night.
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Old 05-24-2012, 05:40 AM   #48
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Default Re: Thrilla in Manilla question

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Originally Posted by ETM View Post
Wali Muhammad who was in Ali`s corner. From Ali "His Life and Times"

"After the 14th round, Ali came back to the corner and told us "CUT EM OFF" Thats how tired he was. And Angelo ignored him."

Thomas Hauser later confirmed this with Ali himself before he wrote his book.

So Willie the Worm heard him say it. Wali Muhammad heard him say it. And Ali himself admitted to saying it.

Yet its still a debate?

Only in a Muhammad Ali thread.
people just don't wanna believe Ali would do something like that. It's ****ing ridiculous that even the best posters in ESB will never slate Ali. There was a thread a while back about various suspicions about Ali's career, the Cooper fight being the main focus and many were denying the use of smelling salts and claiming that the cut glove gave him an advantage, or gave him time between rounds. Ali is human.
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Old 05-24-2012, 05:45 AM   #49
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Default Re: Thrilla in Manilla question

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Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki View Post
If he can get up, raise his arms, and walk around, he could have gotten up and thrown a couple of punches, at which point Carlos Padilla has said he would have stopped the fight.

He went to the canvas atleast ten seconds after standing to raise his arms. It is DAMN possible for a massive adrenal, emotional drain to begin the second an ordeal is over.

The man walked through hell with his greatest rival and clearly won the fight, because he ended it on top, with the greatest trainer ever saving his man from the champion's fists. That's a big moment. With a high level of exhaustion? Yeah, I'd sit down too.

People make a ton out of this out of love for Joe Frazier, and I get that, but WATCH THE FIGHT. Ali gets up to celebrate his victory. Frazier takes a beating in the 14th and pulls out. That's what happened, and that is what counts. Joe had no miracles in him for the 15th, the referee was looking to call the fight anyway.
Absolutely correct, but you will never convince Joe's fans of it.
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Old 05-24-2012, 05:53 AM   #50
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Default Re: Thrilla in Manilla question

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Originally Posted by Webbiano View Post
people just don't wanna believe Ali would do something like that. It's ****ing ridiculous that even the best posters in ESB will never slate Ali. There was a thread a while back about various suspicions about Ali's career, the Cooper fight being the main focus and many were denying the use of smelling salts and claiming that the cut glove gave him an advantage, or gave him time between rounds. Ali is human.

Ali did get smelling salts put under his nose by Dundee against Cooper, and they were illegal in the UK at the time.
The cut glove gave him no advantage, it was not changed ,and the delay was minimal its been proved many times .

Whilst accepting these myths , you might want to watch Frazier's corner giving him smelling salts between the 11th, 12th, 13th ,and last round.

It's on the film ,and was also illegal world wide by the time of the fight. The referee guided Frazier back to his corner after the 14th, he was done .Futch was absolutely correct to stop the fight.
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Old 05-24-2012, 05:59 AM   #51
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Default Re: Thrilla in Manilla question

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
Ali did get smelling salts put under his nose by Dundee against Cooper, and they were illegal in the UK at the time.
The cut glove gave him no advantage, it was not changed ,and the delay was minimal its been proved many times .

Whilst accepting these myths , you might want to watch Frazier's corner giving him smelling salts between the 11th, 12th, 13th ,and last round.

It's on the film ,and was also illegal world wide by the time of the fight. The referee guided Frazier back to his corner after the 14th, he was done .Futch was absolutely correct to stop the fight.
Frazier used smelling salts but GOAT SUPERHUMAN not possible of error Ali didn't nice this will go no further my friend. Try replying to 5 posts above though, I'd love to see you bull**** your way out of that post.
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Old 05-24-2012, 06:27 AM   #52
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Default Re: Thrilla in Manilla question

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Originally Posted by Webbiano View Post
Frazier used smelling salts but GOAT SUPERHUMAN not possible of error Ali didn't nice this will go no further my friend. Try replying to 5 posts above though, I'd love to see you bull**** your way out of that post.
Are you illiterate?
I stated in my last post that Ali's corner used smelling salts in the first Cooper fight. Have I ever denied that Ali said that ?

Ali said the same thing to Dundee in the first Liston fight, how did that turn out? Why don't you watch the first Cooper fight before opening your big empty mouth. Then watch the last few rounds of the Manila fight . You can see Ali get up from his stool raise his arm in the air in victory. He went to the floor AFTER the result was announced.
Oh ,and I'm not your friend.
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Old 05-24-2012, 08:03 AM   #53
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Default Re: Thrilla in Manilla question

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
Ali did get smelling salts put under his nose by Dundee against Cooper, and they were illegal in the UK at the time.
The cut glove gave him no advantage, it was not changed ,and the delay was minimal its been proved many times .

Whilst accepting these myths , you might want to watch Frazier's corner giving him smelling salts between the 11th, 12th, 13th ,and last round.

It's on the film ,and was also illegal world wide by the time of the fight. The referee guided Frazier back to his corner after the 14th, he was done .Futch was absolutely correct to stop the fight.

As I've said several times,over the last few years,only a sadist and/or a rabid Frazier hater would criticise Eddie Futch's decision to pull Joe out.
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Old 05-24-2012, 08:08 AM   #54
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Default Re: Thrilla in Manilla question

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Originally Posted by Webbiano View Post
people just don't wanna believe Ali would do something like that. It's ****ing ridiculous that even the best posters in ESB will never slate Ali. There was a thread a while back about various suspicions about Ali's career, the Cooper fight being the main focus and many were denying the use of smelling salts and claiming that the cut glove gave him an advantage, or gave him time between rounds. Ali is human.

There are quite a few posters on here that slate Ali,actually. Frankenfrank practically makes it his occupation. I'm not complaining by any means,it's good to have topics up for debate.
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Old 05-24-2012, 08:36 AM   #55
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Default Re: Thrilla in Manilla question

I'll need to go back and score this fight again, no way did I have Ali in the lead especially by the margin mentioned about.

I think from the 4th or 5th to the 11th I gave Ali one round. If I remember correctly I had Ali up by a point going into the last round.

Wouldn't it have been magical if the fight had ended in a draw!?
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Old 05-24-2012, 08:44 AM   #56
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Default Re: Thrilla in Manilla question

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Originally Posted by HMSTempleGarden View Post
I'll need to go back and score this fight again, no way did I have Ali in the lead especially by the margin mentioned about.

I think from the 4th or 5th to the 11th I gave Ali one round. If I remember correctly I had Ali up by a point going into the last round.

Wouldn't it have been magical if the fight had ended in a draw!?

It would have been even more magical if Ali and Joe had issued a joint statement saying something like "After a fight like that we're both quitting the ring for good"
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Old 05-24-2012, 08:57 AM   #57
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Default Re: Thrilla in Manilla question

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Originally Posted by Stevie G View Post
It would have been even more magical if Ali and Joe had issued a joint statement saying something like "After a fight like that we're both quitting the ring for good"
yeah I remember one of the hacks on the documentary saying similar, after the fight everything that was said and done should have been forgotten forever and the two should have embraced and called it quits.

It was utterly inhuman what they guys put each other through in that fight.
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Old 05-24-2012, 09:00 AM   #58
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Default Re: Thrilla in Manilla question

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Originally Posted by ETM View Post
1. It was 100 degrees or more that day maybe more with the ring lights and all those people packed in there.

2. It was the 15th round of the fastest paced most vicious heavyweight fight ever seen by many.

3. Ali might have been "winning" but he had taken a brutal beating to the body and head especially in the middle rounds up to the 11th. It was one of the most relentless body assaults a man has ever taken in a prize ring.

4. The Larry Holmes fight was a waltz and Holmes was trying like hell to carry Ali that night.
This, added to the fact that Ali knew, or at least believed, that he could never break Joe Frazier mentally...god knows, he had been trying for years to do it and however he tried, just couldn't do it. Moreover, the more he tried to break Joe mentally, the more dogged Joe seemed to become. In the end, I think Joe's apparent bottomless pit of bravery probably psyched Muhammad out...not the other way around...

It did seem to me that had it not been for Futch Joe would have come out for the 15th, 16th, 17th etc, as long as there was breath in his body...I honestly don't believe Muhammad was willing to go quite that far...
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Old 05-24-2012, 05:04 PM   #59
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This, added to the fact that Ali knew, or at least believed, that he could never break Joe Frazier mentally...god knows, he had been trying for years to do it and however he tried, just couldn't do it. Moreover, the more he tried to break Joe mentally, the more dogged Joe seemed to become. In the end, I think Joe's apparent bottomless pit of bravery probably psyched Muhammad out...not the other way around...

It did seem to me that had it not been for Futch Joe would have come out for the 15th, 16th, 17th etc, as long as there was breath in his body...I honestly don't believe Muhammad was willing to go quite that far...
I don't doubt Frazier would have come out for the 15th rd.
The bone of contention is ,what would have happened had he done so?
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Old 05-24-2012, 07:12 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Bill Butcher View Post
As far as the thread question... I see a slow round, with Ali content to flicker out the odd jab & keep Joe at distance, I see Joe bulling in from time to time taking a clean punch or 2 on the way in, I see Joe landing a few weak body shots while inside while Ali clinches & holds on for the ref to break... I see this pattern continuing until the last 20-30 seconds were Ali puts a few strong-ish punches together as Joe comes in again, Joe takes them, ref breaks, same again, ref brakes, bell rings.

Ali wins a lethargic (from both mens point of view) round & the fight by unanimous decision.

Ps. Ali scoring a TKO wouldn`t be a shock either, Joe scoring a TKO/KO would be a long shot IMO.

Frazier winning a lacklustre round but losing the fight on points is definitely possible too.

How about Muhammad scoring a knockdown over Joe?
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