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Old 07-05-2007, 06:22 PM   #1
eze
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Default Is it impossible for the fighters of today to ever reach the greatness of SRR or SRL?

I just dont think it can happen, no matter how much a fighter does no one will ever say they did better then SRR or SRL. And most fighters today would be destroyed by the fighters of the past. I hate these comments.


Why even fight for legacy when no matter what you do, you won't get that nod.
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Old 07-05-2007, 06:24 PM   #2
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Default Re: Is it impossible for the fighters of today to ever reach the greatness of SRR or SRL?

Leonard, yes.

Robinson, that's extremely hard.

The guy had 200 fights and was fighting 20 times a year, often against top fighters. He faced the lightweight champ in a non-title bout after about a year of his debut.

Top fighters nowadays just aren't that active. The closest were J.C. Chavez and James Toney.
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Old 07-05-2007, 06:33 PM   #3
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Default Re: Is it impossible for the fighters of today to ever reach the greatness of SRR or SRL?

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RJJ dominated everyone from 1990-2002 - went from being a Middleweight to a Heavyweight champ, yet he isn't seen anywhere near Sugar Ray Robinson
He has two ATG's on his resume.

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Chances are at a catchweight, H2H, he ****ing dominates Sugar Ray Robinson.
Jones wold be competitive in with Sugar - seems unlikely to me, he would beat him.

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50 years later, perhaps - RJJ will be seen in a similar light..

Maybe Floyd, too, who knows.
These two just don't have the great fighters on their resumes. It's ok to fight less fighters but you have to fight great fighters to achieve the sort of status you are talking about.
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Old 07-05-2007, 06:34 PM   #4
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Default Re: Is it impossible for the fighters of today to ever reach the greatness of SRR or SRL?

It is 100% possible. No matter what, when you rank people, you must NEVER put one person on an unreachable pedastal. You simply cannot. If someone came along and mirrored Robinson's achievements, and then won ten more fights, he would simply have to be better than him. That's how it works.

Since no one will probably ever even fight that many times again at the top level, based on politics and other factors, the criteria need to be adjusted as such. For instance, do people really need to fight someone six times to find out who is best? Yes, it helps, but it isn't realistic in today's boxing picture. I don't believe anyone has surpassed Robinson (Leonard doesn't even need to be in this debate, because he's not number one) yet, but it is a very real possibility, and there is no reason to give it no chance.
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Old 07-05-2007, 06:42 PM   #5
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Default Re: Is it impossible for the fighters of today to ever reach the greatness of SRR or SRL?

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Originally Posted by Marnoff
, the criteria need to be adjusted as such. For instance, do people really need to fight someone six times to find out who is best? Yes, it helps, but it isn't realistic in today's boxing picture. I don't believe anyone has surpassed Robinson (Leonard doesn't even need to be in this debate, because he's not number one) yet, but it is a very real possibility, and there is no reason to give it no chance.
Yes, quite right.

If a guy came along and took on the BEST at, say, three or four weights and won or avenged against all the key fighters in those divisions, that would be something worth considering, for example.
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Old 07-05-2007, 06:55 PM   #6
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Default Re: Is it impossible for the fighters of today to ever reach the greatness of SRR or SRL?

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Originally Posted by Blocky
How do you become an ATG? By beating ATGs.
Well this isn't always the case. Hopkins dominated an era to such an extent that his qualification is automatic, regardless of resume. So too does Joe Louis, who some say is the greatest heavyweight of all time and probably has no top ten fighters from his own division.


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How many ATG's exist in boxing at the moment? Very few - Why? Because we don't like to consider them ATG's
Well it's very difficult when they are still campaigning. Of the top of my head i'd say we have Barrera, Hopkins, Oscar, Mayweather...Hollyfield and Jones are still kind of active.
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Old 07-05-2007, 07:28 PM   #7
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Default Re: Is it impossible for the fighters of today to ever reach the greatness of SRR or SRL?

See. People think its crazy for Roy Jones to kick SRRs ass. Roy was bigger, stronger, faster. everything better then Ray. But ray wins.
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Old 07-05-2007, 07:37 PM   #8
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Default Re: Is it impossible for the fighters of today to ever reach the greatness of SRR or SRL?

Is it possible? Yes. Nobody is saying it isn't. But it just hasn't happened. Bottom line, Roy Jones did not have as impressive a career as Ray Robinson. It's not because of bias, it's because of fact.
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Old 07-05-2007, 07:37 PM   #9
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Default Re: Is it impossible for the fighters of today to ever reach the greatness of SRR or SRL?

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Originally Posted by Erratic Behavior
Leonard, yes.

Robinson, that's extremely hard.

The guy had 200 fights and was fighting 20 times a year, often against top fighters. He faced the lightweight champ in a non-title bout after about a year of his debut.

Top fighters nowadays just aren't that active. The closest were J.C. Chavez and James Toney.
This is what would make it extremely difficult IMO. Plus with old timers nothing can top the good old days. I often wonder, I am 30, if when i'm 60 or 70 thinkin back that Tyson, PBF, Oscar, Cotto, etc. stars of the present day will seem way better than what will be available then.
One thing though is our current guys get high quality footage, easily accessible reviews, and with the internet you can find out any thing you want to know in seconds, where i imagine in the old days you just talked and spread news in pubs with friends etc. You know how stories go without in your face proof too, things tend to get exagerated a bit.
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Old 07-05-2007, 07:39 PM   #10
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Default Re: Is it impossible for the fighters of today to ever reach the greatness of SRR or

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Originally Posted by eze
See. People think its crazy for Roy Jones to kick SRRs ass. Roy was bigger, stronger, faster. everything better then Ray. But ray wins.
Who, exactly, is saying that it is crazy to say RJJ beats SRR at 160? I think Jones would probably be the favorite. Sweet Pea says "this is a close ass fight."
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Old 07-05-2007, 07:45 PM   #11
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Default Re: Is it impossible for the fighters of today to ever reach the greatness of SRR or SRL?

No, because fans overrate the old timers.

I dare you to take a look at SRR resume, how many of those fights could you toss out as bum of the week canidates.

If the champs of today fought those kinds of tune-up paycheck fights in between "real" title fights they'd be crucified.

I think the question that needs to be asked is this. If Sugar Ray Robinson fought today, would he win 173 fights? Would he be light years better than Winky, Miranda, Pavlik, Taylor, Calzaghe, Abraham, etc?

Do you not think that those same guys couldn't hang with Basilio, Fullmer, LaMotta, and Turpin??

You really think Robinson would win against Hagler? You think he could of dominated Leonard, Hearns, Nunn, and Toney? Let alone Roy Jones.

He might win some of those fights, but he wouldn't dominate all those guys.

He was a superior athlete in a era of tough guy punching bags and a few other skilled fighters who fought too much and got their heads beat in for a living, and not to name the dirty fights and fixed outcomes of the era.
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Old 07-05-2007, 07:48 PM   #12
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Default Re: Is it impossible for the fighters of today to ever reach the greatness of SRR or SRL?

[quote=Blocky]
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A: There was only one belt for much of it
How do you see this as a help? The one good thing about multiple belts is it makes it EASIER for gus to get status and cash by fighting title fights and unifying the titles.

I think you're way of with this.


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B: There weren't Don King like promoters making money the biggest issue
They were far worse than King, and money was the only issue. Fighters got robbed by promoters left right and centre.

No disrespect but you need to educate yourself on this issue before you wade in.


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No where near as many crafty trainers/fighters out there
I'm not sure what you mean here.

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You have one belt that you have to fight the best to get and booya, you're seen as the best... even when unifying all belts, someone will still say "Oh you didn't face blah" - when Blah goes after another trinket, rather than coming to face you for yours.
There was about as much ducking in the old days as there is now.


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If there was just ONE belt per division, you'd have more ATG's.
Wills, Burley and Langford are examples of bona fide ATG's who NEVER held a world belt at any weight.

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What's more, people would start to realise that the dickheads people like Sugar Ray Robinson accumulated so many wins against weren't even ****ing close to the Firemen and Policemen fighters Roy was supposedly beating up.
Kid, what the **** are you talking about?
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Old 07-05-2007, 07:51 PM   #13
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Default Re: Is it impossible for the fighters of today to ever reach the greatness of SRR or

Quote:
Originally Posted by nervousxtian
No, because fans overrate the old timers.

I dare you to take a look at SRR resume, how many of those fights could you toss out as bum of the week canidates.

If the champs of today fought those kinds of tune-up paycheck fights in between "real" title fights they'd be crucified.

I think the question that needs to be asked is this. If Sugar Ray Robinson fought today, would he win 173 fights? Would he be light years better than Winky, Miranda, Pavlik, Taylor, Calzaghe, Abraham, etc?

Do you not think that those same guys couldn't hang with Basilio, Fullmer, LaMotta, and Turpin??

You really think Robinson would win against Hagler? You think he could of dominated Leonard, Hearns, Nunn, and Toney? Let alone Roy Jones.

He might win some of those fights, but he wouldn't dominate all those guys.

He was a superior athlete in a era of tough guy punching bags and a few other skilled fighters who fought too much and got their heads beat in for a living, and not to name the dirty fights and fixed outcomes of the era.
Where do you find these people who say that Robinson's middleweight era was the best of all time? Or that Robinson would dominate Leonard, Hearns, Nunn, Toney, and Jones? Because whoever these people are, they are wrong. Fortunately, there don't appear to be any on this thread or really on this site.

Nobody says that every guy Robinson fought was an ATG. Sure, there were some weak fighters, but, more often than not, he was fighting excellent fighters.

And if any fighter from any era has over 200 fights, I will forgive the occasional tuneup against a weak fighter. On the other hand, anybody fighting twice a year should be fighting the best opposition in every fight.
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Old 07-05-2007, 07:54 PM   #14
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Default Re: Is it impossible for the fighters of today to ever reach the greatness of SRR or SRL?

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Originally Posted by nervousxtian
If the champs of today fought those kinds of tune-up paycheck fights in between "real" title fights they'd be crucified.
I don't agree with this at all. As long as they were fighting the best in title fights I think they could fight whoever they want in between - as long as they weren't asking me to fork out 25 for the privalidge!

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I think the question that needs to be asked is this. If Sugar Ray Robinson fought today, would he win 173 fights?
He wouldn't fight that many. I'd bet his win/loss ratio would still be about the same in prime, though.


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Would he be light years better than Winky, Miranda, Pavlik, Taylor, Calzaghe, Abraham, etc?
Not light years. But I would personally pick him to beat all these guys.

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Do you not think that those same guys couldn't hang with Basilio, Fullmer, LaMotta, and Turpin??

There's a lot going on in here as far as variety and styles go, but of the top of my head I think that Winky would be better than these guys and the rest around the same water-mark in terms of quality, though i'd pick LaMotta to beat many of them in terms of style.

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You really think Robinson would win against Hagler? You think he could of dominated Leonard, Hearns, Nunn, and Toney? Let alone Roy Jones.
Dominated? No, he wouldn't dominate any of these guys. All great fighters. In a one of fight though, if I was gambling I'd be laying on Robinson in front of all of these gus. I think Hearns would give him the most trouble, personally.
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Old 07-05-2007, 07:55 PM   #15
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Default Re: Is it impossible for the fighters of today to ever reach the greatness of SRR or SRL?

It will have to happen after a fighters career is over. Robinson wasnt seen as the fight that he is seen as today. It took time, same with Leonard. Its not until the next group of fight fans come along and say DAMN that guy was great. Just a side note. When I was a kid, 7 or 8 my father took me to a fight, I had been fighting as an amatuer for about a year and a half at that time. While watching the fight I recall thinking, man all these people here to watch this, two skinny guys I dont see anything special here. I remember thinking that the big kids at the gym were better then these guys. The fight that I was at............................................ ............................... ..................... ........................ .......................... ......................... ...................... ............... ........... ...............Tommy Hearns vs Ray Leonard, go figure.
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