Haye and Chisora each fought the wrong Klitschko

[Manning]

Originally Posted by knockout artist

Fantastic post Moneypaysbills! You're a credit to this forum, it's great to have posters of your ilk on here. I wholeheartedly agree with your thesis, we've seen Vitali countered and punished against slick defensive counter punchers like Byrd and more recently Solis. If Haye can slip Vitali's jabs, he can land his looping Hayemakers on Vitali's chin, especially as Vitali carries his left hand so low. If Haye can increase his output and find the openings, he can win a decision against Vitali, he did it against the larger Valuev.

As for Wlad-Chisora, we've seen Wlad struggle under pressure by punchers with head movement, and who apply pressure. Look at his fights with Purrity, Sanders, Brewster, Peter 1. Del Boy's granite chin and relentless pressuring style will no doubt cause him nightmares. Wlad can't fight going backwards, once Del Boy has him backing up (like against Vitali) then it's gonna be a long night for Wlad. As for those boasting about Wlad's power, he hit blown up CW Haye with quite a few right hands and couldn't even put him down.
Neither Klitschko is like a Joe Calzaghe, who overcame all styles

Fantastic thread Moneypaysbills, unfortunately when you try and make reasonable and objective points about the Klitschkos, the fanboys will be out in their numbers to try and refute, what is irrefutable.

Stopped reading when I got to that part.

[luke]

Perfect thread, Chisora is Wlads worst nightmare right know, and Haye is Vitaliys no question about that, they always get the easy opponent that would give the other brother problems, old man Thompson would give Vitali more trouble than Wlad and thats the truth.

[knockout artist]

Originally Posted by AnotherFan

I fail to see how people complain Wlad fought Haye instead of Chisora. Haye has much more dangerous tools, and he cant be clinched down, which would be Del Boys fate.

Styles make fights. Haye's a counter puncher who fights on the backfoot. Wlad will come forward, use his jab, and maybe throw a right hand every here and there. Haye will stay on the outside, and try to counter one of these jabs, but Wlad has a huge reach advantage, so Haye's punches likely won't land, as we saw. Because Haye's output is so low, and Wlad's doesn't open up, doesn't take risks, and as neither are willing to exchange, what we saw is what we'd get 9/10 times. Essentially, it boils down to this, Wlad will beat Haye because he's taller, outweighs Haye by 25+ pounds and has the significant height and reach advantages,

As Lamont Brewster said, the way to beat Wlad is to back him up. He's almost impossible to beat on the backfoot (unless you're Muhammed Ali, or Larry Holmes).

Originally Posted by Manning

Stopped reading when I got to that part.

well you clearly didn't watch the fight, who gives a **** where you stopped reading.

[luke]

Originally Posted by knockout artist

why can't there be objective discussion and constructive criticism made about the Klitschko's without a swathe of fanboys ruining the thread? Moneypaysbills posed an interesting topic, and I thought it was a great read. No he's not 100% accurate, but who is? CHEF I'm not sure how much effect Haye's toe had on him, and with all due respect, neither do you. The fact he had to take painkiller injections suggests to me that it was a legit issue, though I'm not toetally convinced he would have done much better with a healthy toe. Wlad's all wrong for Haye, bar a lucky punch, Wlad always outboxes Haye. Vitali howver, isn't as quick as Wlad, he doesn't move as well, and his reflexes aren't as sharp, he also carries his left hand very low, Haye can take advantage of that, David is a HW Willie Pep, make them miss, make them pay.

Chisora is a hard nights work Wlad, who can't fight going backwards. If Chisora can start backing Wlad up, then he he can have some joy, if Wlad wasn't allowed to hold excessively by the referees in Klitscho fights, then Del Boy could go to work if he gets inside. Wlad isn't stopping Chisora, his best right hands couldn't drop Haye, let alone granite chinned G$ora.

I also think prime Chagaev (not the ill version Wlad beat) could cause Vitali fits. Wlad would beat the shit of Arreola, I don't rate him at all.

Perfect, I think Thompson would give Vitali alot more trouble than Wlad, prime Lamont Brewster would give Vitali some problems too, Povetkin - Vitali and Wlad - Valuev, John Ruiz might give them both some problems, Tyson Fury although not a good fighter, would give Vitali hell.

[AnotherFan]

Originally Posted by knockout artist

Styles make fights. Haye's a counter puncher who fights on the backfoot. Wlad will come forward, use his jab, and maybe throw a right hand every here and there. Haye will stay on the outside, and try to counter one of these jabs, but Wlad has a huge reach advantage, so Haye's punches likely won't land, as we saw. Because Haye's output is so low, and Wlad's doesn't open up, doesn't take risks, and as neither are willing to exchange, what we saw is what we'd get 9/10 times. Essentially, it boils down to this, Wlad will beat Haye because he's taller, outweighs Haye by 25+ pounds and has the significant height and reach advantages,

As Lamont Brewster said, the way to beat Wlad is to back him up. He's almost impossible to beat on the backfoot (unless you're Muhammed Ali, or Larry Holmes).

While Wlad proved himself to be a superior boxer to Haye, the whole idea that Del Boy would give Wlad more trouble seems strange to me. It is probably true that Wlad struggles more with pressure fighters, but it requires pressure fighters that are Very Good Boxers. Chisora aint, and would fall prey for Wlads better skillset. A simplyfied argument is that even onearmed grandpa Vitali was able to keep Chisora at bay. T.S. angle dont hold up.

[Manning]

Originally Posted by knockout artist

well you clearly didn't watch the fight, who gives a **** where you stopped reading.

The myth of the Solis vs Vitali fight is bizarre to say the least. First of I'm supposed to ignore the Solis knock down and following KO, now that that's done that leaves the other 2 mins of the fight where Vitali is slightly edging a close round about 60/40 in his favour and this is supposed to be some sort of proof to knock Vitali as a fighter, very strange, very strange indeed.

The ironic thing about that round (minus the Solis knock down and KO of course) is that it went more or less the exact same as the first round between Adamek and Vitali.

[ame="***********.youtube.com/watch?v=69x9N8mNATs"]***********.youtube.com/watch?v=69x9N8mNATs[/ame]

[ame="***********.youtube.com/watch?v=7Rye7WPGFmI"]***********.youtube.com/watch?v=7Rye7WPGFmI[/ame]

[knockout artist]

Originally Posted by AnotherFan

While Wlad proved himself to be a superior boxer to Haye, the whole idea that Del Boy would give Wlad more trouble seems strange to me. It is probably true that Wlad struggles more with pressure fighters, but it requires pressure fighters that are Very Good Boxers. Chisora aint, and would fall prey for Wlads better skillset. A simplyfied argument is that even onearmed grandpa Vitali was able to keep Chisora at bay. T.S. angle dont hold up.

It's styles mate. Haye will be on the backfoot, looking for counter punching opportunities he'll hardly get, which makes for a boring fight, with very little action, which Wlad takes advantage of using decent jab and his height and reach advantage.

Chisora weighs the same as Wlad, so he'll be able to push Wlad back. Chisora's gameplan is to make Wlad back up, which is how Lamont Brewster said you beat him. Chisora actually fights like a small man, he comes forward in a crouch, using a cross arm defence that's designed to take away jabs and right hands, which are the main punches Wlad throws. He also goes to the body, attacks the arms and then tries to go for the head. So, not thinking about how good Chisora is, his actual game plan makes the fight interesting, and if he executes it well, it's a tough night for Wlad.

Many guys who fight Wlad, panic (like Haye did) and just start looking to headhunt and try and land a lucky punch in the hope of a KO, and it just doesn't happen, Wlad is very polished, he's excellent at what he does.

That's why I think Chisora

[Boxing Fanatic]

i always thought haye should have fought vitali 1st. haye is just a ****y and greedy sob

[knockout artist]

Originally Posted by Manning

The myth of the Solis vs Vitali fight is bizarre to say the least. First of I'm supposed to ignore the Solis knock down and following KO, now that that's done that leaves the other 2 mins of the fight where Vitali is slightly edging a close round about 60/40 in his favour and this is supposed to be some sort of proof to knock Vitali as a fighter, very strange, very strange indeed.

The ironic thing about that round (minus the Solis knock down and KO of course) is that it went more or less the exact same as the first round between Adamek and Vitali.

[url="***********.youtube.com/watch?v=69x9N8mNATs"]***********.youtube.com/watch?v=69x9N8mNATs[/url]

[url="***********.youtube.com/watch?v=7Rye7WPGFmI"]***********.youtube.com/watch?v=7Rye7WPGFmI[/url]

Have you watched these fights? Solis was actually winning the round, until his knee blew out. Solis is not Adamek. Adamek tasted the power of Vitali's jab, staggered against the ropes, and went into survival mode. Solis actually connected some solid punches on Vitali, like at 3:30. Look at how low Vitali carries his hands, and tell me Haye couldn't get some joy countering his jab?

[Manning]

Originally Posted by knockout artist

Have you watched these fights? Solis was actually winning the round,

I still don't buy that. A close round yes but I still have Vitali ahead, he's landing much more despite them only being jabs.

Originally Posted by knockout artist

Solis is not Adamek. Adamek tasted the power of Vitali's jab, staggered against the ropes, and went into survival mode.

Not in the first round though, he was competitive and was somewhat successful while darting in and out trying to counter. Got destroyed every round after that though as Vitali went through the gears and Adamek struggled to adapt.

Originally Posted by knockout artist

Solis actually connected some solid punches on Vitali, like at 3:30. Look at how low Vitali carries his hands, and tell me Haye couldn't get some joy countering his jab?

He could do, but I still wouldn't say Haye's as sharp a puncher as Solis or would be prepared to be in Vitali's face like Solis does. I suspect Haye would do similar to what he did against Valuev and Wladimir and stay on the back foot with a low punch output and try nick rounds. I can see him having some success with that tactic and at best lose the fight by 2 rounds but it won't be enough to beat Vitali and his 70 odd punches a round where he's going to be taking all the close rounds with his aggression and work rate.

The best bet to beat Vitali imo is to follow the blueprint that Tyson used against old Holmes and really get in his face and take the fight to him and push him hard and let him show his age.

[CHEF]

Originally Posted by knockout artist

why can't there be objective discussion and constructive criticism made about the Klitschko's without a swathe of fanboys ruining the thread? Moneypaysbills posed an interesting topic, and I thought it was a great read. No he's not 100% accurate, but who is? CHEF I'm not sure how much effect Haye's toe had on him, and with all due respect, neither do you. The fact he had to take painkiller injections suggests to me that it was a legit issue, though I'm not toetally convinced he would have done much better with a healthy toe. Wlad's all wrong for Haye, bar a lucky punch, Wlad always outboxes Haye. Vitali howver, isn't as quick as Wlad, he doesn't move as well, and his reflexes aren't as sharp, he also carries his left hand very low, Haye can take advantage of that, David is a HW Willie Pep, make them miss, make them pay.

Chisora is a hard nights work Wlad, who can't fight going backwards. If Chisora can start backing Wlad up, then he he can have some joy, if Wlad wasn't allowed to hold excessively by the referees in Klitscho fights, then Del Boy could go to work if he gets inside. Wlad isn't stopping Chisora, his best right hands couldn't drop Haye, let alone granite chinned G$ora.

I also think prime Chagaev (not the ill version Wlad beat) could cause Vitali fits. Wlad would beat the shit of Arreola, I don't rate him at all.

I agree. I dont know for sure, but like I posted... i went with the words from haye himself.... saying that it wasnt an issue... PLUS Booth himself told us (team Wlad) the toe wasnt a problem... booth mentioned to many of us in the ring that "it was a right hand in the 6th that caused Haye to be even more cautious"..."the fight was basically over at that point"...

[knockout artist]

[quote=Manning;12843228]I still don't buy that. A close round yes but I still have Vitali ahead, he's landing much more despite them only being jabs.[quote]


I gave it to Solis, I score his clean hard power punches over Vitali's pawed range finder jabs.

Originally Posted by Manning

Not in the first round though, he was competitive and was somewhat successful while darting in and out trying to counter. Got destroyed every round after that though as Vitali went through the gears and Adamek struggled to adapt.

Adamek offered nothing in that fight. He had no business being in the ring with someone that size, though credit to him for hanging in there.

Originally Posted by Manning

He could do, but I still wouldn't say Haye's as sharp a puncher as Solis or would be prepared to be in Vitali's face like Solis does. I suspect Haye would do similar to what he did against Valuev and Wladimir and stay on the back foot with a low punch output and try nick rounds. I can see him having some success with that tactic and at best lose the fight by 2 rounds but it won't be enough to beat Vitali and his 70 odd punches a round where he's going to be taking all the close rounds with his aggression and work rate.

The best bet to beat Vitali imo is to follow the blueprint that Tyson used against old Holmes and really get in his face and take the fight to him and push him hard and let him show his age.

No-one around today can execute a Tyson gameplan.

Haye is a skillful counter puncher, and Vitali will give him more opportunities than Wlad did. Vitali not as quick on his feet, and he doesn't have the same sharp reflexes today that Wlad has. I agree with you in that Haye simply doesn't throw enough punches, I even said in one my previous posts that Haye would have to increase his output and open up more himself, but h does have the raw attributes.

Originally Posted by CHEF

I agree. I dont know for sure, but like I posted... i went with the words from haye himself.... saying that it wasnt an issue... PLUS Booth himself told us (team Wlad) the toe wasnt a problem... booth mentioned to many of us in the ring that "it was a right hand in the 6th that caused Haye to be even more cautious"..."the fight was basically over at that point"...

Fair enough, I'll take your word for it. As I said in previous posts, Wlad always has Haye's number and I explained why. Doesn't mean that Haye can't have some joy against Vitali

[CHEF]

lets not forget guys.........
remember......Wlad was set to fight Chisora
remember... Haye had the contract to fight Vitali and then was a no-show-no-call for 5 days then signed to fight Valuev.....

you guys make it sound like Vitali didnt want haye and Wlad didnt want chisora

that simply is not the facts

[CHEF]

this is all a watse of time... if haye wins and Vitali is still active... im sure that will happen.... if Chisora wins...im sure Wlad chisora will happen at some time..... so stop bitching

[knockout artist]

Originally Posted by CHEF

this is all a watse of time... if haye wins and Vitali is still active... im sure that will happen.... if Chisora wins...im sure Wlad chisora will happen at some time..... so stop bitching

I hope so, those are interesting fights that the fans want to see!