Ali vs Foreman : 2

[MachineGunMitch]

I dont think ALI would have gotten Forman twice,Forman was mentally shot
before the bell rang in the first fight...A second fight I would think
Forman would be smarter and not fall for ALi's antics but who knows
Forman has done some pretty stupid shit in his career and said some
really puzzling comments - maybe he is really stupid twice

[Duodenum]

I would not be in the least bit surprised if George was hoping that one of his former victims who had previously defeated Ali would win their rubber match for the title. Should Frazier have prevailed in Manila, or Norton in New York, they would have only been considered caretaker champions until facing Foreman. Then, once again as a defending champion, George would have more control over the terms of a rematch with Ali. As a Houston native, if Foreman managed to resolve the issues which had previously induced him to defend the title abroad, he ought to have arranged a rematch defense homecoming in the Astrodome (a very familiar place to Ali, where he previously beat hometown favorite Cleveland Williams, as well as Ernie Terrell, Jimmy Ellis, and Buster Mathis). That shouldn't have been difficult for George to have set up.

In Kinshasa, Ali fought George's fight, and prevailed. Loose ropes ought to have made it easier for Foreman to knock Ali out of the ring, yet it was a miss by George which nearly sent HIM tumbling over the top rope. Foreman got Muhammad in a 16 foot telephone booth with soft flooring, which prevented Ali from moving as he normally would without tiring. Muhammad gave the left side of his body away to George's lethal right without wilting. George was bigger, younger, stronger, and had never sustained a beating like Ali did in the FOTC. Foreman had seemingly proved his boxing skill and endurance earlier, in the first and second Peralta fights.

Muhammad did have the crowd on his side in Kinshasa, just as he did against Holmes in Las Vegas, but the crowd wasn't doing the fighting for him. An awful lot of people have said the cards were stacked in Ali's favor against George, but except for the arena audience, it seems to me that a stronger case could be made for Foreman having the competitive advantages as the match started.

How could an older man simply absorb powerful right hands to the body like that without slowing down? How is it, that George didn't break Ali's left side short ribs, without Muhammad protecting them? How on Earth did Ali rocket off LOOSE ropes with lightning bolt right hands that carried that kind of speed?

When Ali last boxed in an air conditioned Astrodome against hometown opposition, he produced the peak performance of his career. How much faster and harder would his right hands have been, if he'd had tight ropes to rebound them off of? Leaning as far back as he was against those slack ropes in Kinshasa, it was amazing to me that Ali was ever able to reach Foreman's head with right crosses starting from the third row. It blows my mind that even with George able to see them coming from such a long distance away, he couldn't move to avoid them. How much more energy would the older Ali have had in an air conditioned environment? And would George have left the Astrodome in a hearse?

[My dinner with Conteh]

Originally Posted by Duodenum

An awful lot of people have said the cards were stacked in Ali's favor against George, but except for the arena audience, it seems to me that a stronger case could be made for Foreman having the competitive advantages as the match started.

Give me partisan crowd ahead of any other advantage every day of the week.

Originally Posted by Duodenum

And would George have left the Astrodome in a hearse?

Ali couldn't budge Evangelista (well Alfredo did have a mild paper cut after the fight) so I'm sure George would have gambled his health on a fight at the beginning of 1977. Instead he had to fight another of the Top 5 (having only fought the other four). Makes sense.


ps. Bet he wished he was Tony Tucker, who could just sit there and be installed mandatory contender AND receive a title shot.

[Duodenum]

Originally Posted by My dinner with Conteh

Give me partisan crowd ahead of any other advantage every day of the week.

Me too, but Ali could perform well before a hostile crowd as well as a supportive one. (So could Dempsey, and other ATGs.) However, I do think the hostility of the Kinshasa audience may have affected George adversely. The old addage that "Justice is blind, while greatness is deaf" could be applied to succeeding despite boxing in an opponent's hometown, or before a resentful public.

Ali couldn't budge Evangelista (well Alfredo did have a mild paper cut after the fight) so I'm sure George would have gambled his health on a fight at the beginning of 1977. Instead he had to fight another of the Top 5 (having only fought the other four). Makes sense.

True enough. However, Earnie Shavers couldn't take out Ali, any more than Muhammad could budge Tomato Evangelista. Could Foreman have won a match where he couldn't knock Ali out?

ps. Bet he wished he was Tony Tucker, who could just sit there and be installed mandatory contender AND receive a title shot.

Yeah, and I bet he wished he was Tony Tucker, so he would have gotten Tyson in the ring!

[Stonehands89]

I have always believed that Ali got lucky against Foreman in Zaire. He was lucky that Foreman played the dope on the rope and failed to pick his punches. He was lucky that the ropes were loose. He was lucky that George's training regiment was disrupted and faulty.

Superstition, circumstances, and luck made Ali what he always was: Destiny's child.

Ali's strategy of sticking and moving was abandoned after the early rounds because George was too aggressive and overwhelming. Ali went to the ropes, talked trash, and gave Dundee fits. But it worked.

Foreman had good reason to regret that fight and it haunted him for 20 years...

Ali did in fact hand Foreman psychological distress as much as a defeat and Foreman was not the same fighter after Zaire ever again. Forget the Lyle fight. The Foreman that rammed through Norton and Frazier was buried. He didn't believe in himself any longer because Ali -by word and deed- got into his head and exploited the self-doubt that is in every Ghetto child.

A rematch circa 1975? If Foreman approached it as a redemption and had a trainer who understood what he needed between the ears, he could have won. Smart strategy would be only the beginning. I would have had Foreman in secret isolation for 3 months to prepare him inside and out. No TV, no radio, and no roads where Ali could drive down in a van and get into George's head. The beast in Foreman would be found again and Ali would have to be dehumanized.

In sum, I believe that Foreman should have beaten Ali and could have. I'm probably alone in the world, but that's okay.

[garymcfall]

I think Muhammad has Foremans number to be honest, just as stylistically Foreman was all wrong for Joe Frazier, Ali is wrong for Foreman. I see George fighting smarter, probably winning the first 3 or 4 rounds, maybe even hurting or flooring Ali, but about round 6 or 7 i see Muhammad Ali starting to outmanouver Foreman, stinging him with jabs and straight rights. Muhammd would pick him apart the rest of the fight but wouldnt knock him out and he would take a unanimous decision.

[JohnThomas1]

Originally Posted by Stonehands89

Ali did in fact hand Foreman psychological distress as much as a defeat and Foreman was not the same fighter after Zaire ever again. Forget the Lyle fight. The Foreman that rammed through Norton and Frazier was buried. He didn't believe in himself any longer because Ali -by word and deed- got into his head and exploited the self-doubt that is in every Ghetto child.

I have been saying this for the longest time, mostly without much fanfare. Once beaten, some fighters are never the same again, Foreman being one of them.

[JohnThomas1]

Originally Posted by garymcfall

I think Muhammad has Foremans number to be honest, just as stylistically Foreman was all wrong for Joe Frazier, Ali is wrong for Foreman. I see George fighting smarter, probably winning the first 3 or 4 rounds, maybe even hurting or flooring Ali, but about round 6 or 7 i see Muhammad Ali starting to outmanouver Foreman, stinging him with jabs and straight rights. Muhammd would pick him apart the rest of the fight but wouldnt knock him out and he would take a unanimous decision.

Nice assessment.

[jhar26]

Originally Posted by garymcfall

I think Muhammad has Foremans number to be honest, just as stylistically Foreman was all wrong for Joe Frazier, Ali is wrong for Foreman.

Could be, but why then didn't Foreman get a rematch? George gave Frazier a rematch. If Ali was so sure that he had George's number there was no reason to avoid him.

[Duodenum]

Originally Posted by Stonehands89

I have always believed that Ali got lucky against Foreman in Zaire. He was lucky that Foreman played the dope on the rope and failed to pick his punches. He was lucky that the ropes were loose. He was lucky that George's training regiment was disrupted and faulty.

Superstition, circumstances, and luck made Ali what he always was: Destiny's child.

Ali's strategy of sticking and moving was abandoned after the early rounds because George was too aggressive and overwhelming. Ali went to the ropes, talked trash, and gave Dundee fits. But it worked.

Foreman had good reason to regret that fight and it haunted him for 20 years...

Ali did in fact hand Foreman psychological distress as much as a defeat and Foreman was not the same fighter after Zaire ever again. Forget the Lyle fight. The Foreman that rammed through Norton and Frazier was buried. He didn't believe in himself any longer because Ali -by word and deed- got into his head and exploited the self-doubt that is in every Ghetto child.

A rematch circa 1975? If Foreman approached it as a redemption and had a trainer who understood what he needed between the ears, he could have won. Smart strategy would be only the beginning. I would have had Foreman in secret isolation for 3 months to prepare him inside and out. No TV, no radio, and no roads where Ali could drive down in a van and get into George's head. The beast in Foreman would be found again and Ali would have to be dehumanized.

In sum, I believe that Foreman should have beaten Ali and could have. I'm probably alone in the world, but that's okay.

Great post Stonehands. While I've already offered my differing viewpoint about a rematch, let me ask you this about a different trainer for Foreman. Who should it have been? The first thing Gil Clancy did was instruct George to shorten up on his punches. While Gil has been widely criticized for altering George's attack in this way, it could also be argued that it was a short. sharp, Clancy type punch which ultimately regained the title for Foreman. Before the match with Jimmy Young, Gil admonished George to spend at least three weeks in Puerto Rico to get acclimated to the heat and humidity. Foreman disregarded Clancy's recommendation, and paid dearly for it. ?

(Later, Mike Dokes made the some mistake before his outdoor match with Ocasio, and recieved a gift draw, as Gil, now providing color commentary on CBS, almost immediately made note of revealing bad signs, like excessive perspiration early in the bout. Afterwards, during his post match interview, Clancy ribbed Dokes about it, who humbly and good naturedly replied, "Believe me, Mr. Clancy, I will never make that mistake again!" For the rematch, Dokes indeed spent three weeks training in Puerto Rico, and got Ocasio in an air conditioned indoor facility. Three quick first round knockdowns later, Dokes had easily avenged his draw.The dramatic contrast between their first and second matches does make me wonder what impact an air conditioned environment might have had on the performances of both Ali and Foreman.)

If Gil Clancy was the wrong trainer to guide Ali after Foreman, who might have been better suited to do the job?

[My dinner with Conteh]

Originally Posted by garymcfall

I think Muhammad has Foremans number to be honest, just as stylistically Foreman was all wrong for Joe Frazier, Ali is wrong for Foreman. I see George fighting smarter, probably winning the first 3 or 4 rounds, maybe even hurting or flooring Ali, but about round 6 or 7 i see Muhammad Ali starting to outmanouver Foreman, stinging him with jabs and straight rights. Muhammd would pick him apart the rest of the fight but wouldnt knock him out and he would take a unanimous decision.

Good post. I'ts fair to say George would have kittens with Ali, just as Frazier would with him and Ali would with Joe. But I think Foreman would may have nicked a decision in 1977 had he been granted a rematch around the time of the Shavers fight. Earnie nearly won too, some think he did. I think Young and Norton would have beaten Ali that year also...well, when I say 'beaten', I mean, look the better fighter and score more often until a late rally by the judges sees Ali home.

[Stonehands89]

Originally Posted by Duodenum

Great post Stonehands. While I've already offered my differing viewpoint about a rematch, let me ask you this about a different trainer for Foreman. Who should it have been? The first thing Gil Clancy did was instruct George to shorten up on his punches. While Gil has been widely criticized for altering George's attack in this way, it could also be argued that it was a short. sharp, Clancy type punch which ultimately regained the title for Foreman. Before the match with Jimmy Young, Gil admonished George to spend at least three weeks in Puerto Rico to get acclimated to the heat and humidity. Foreman disregarded Clancy's recommendation, and paid dearly for it. ?

(Later, Mike Dokes made the some mistake before his outdoor match with Ocasio, and recieved a gift draw, as Gil, now providing color commentary on CBS, almost immediately made note of revealing bad signs, like excessive perspiration early in the bout. Afterwards, during his post match interview, Clancy ribbed Dokes about it, who humbly and good naturedly replied, "Believe me, Mr. Clancy, I will never make that mistake again!" For the rematch, Dokes indeed spent three weeks training in Puerto Rico, and got Ocasio in an air conditioned indoor facility. Three quick first round knockdowns later, Dokes had easily avenged his draw.The dramatic contrast between their first and second matches does make me wonder what impact an air conditioned environment might have had on the performances of both Ali and Foreman.)

If Gil Clancy was the wrong trainer to guide Ali after Foreman, who might have been better suited to do the job?

Clancy may be my favorite expert commentator as well as a favorite trainer. Emile was built on his brain. I still hold a bit of a grudge against him for the advice he gave De La Hoya that prompted the Trinidad loss. And I am not positive that he was the best psychologist for post-Zaire Foreman. Foreman needed that as much as a sensible training regiment... he had to be rebuilt from the inside out!

As it was, it took Jesus and a 10 year lay-off didn't it...

The Ali foil (and for that matter, the Jones and Holyfield foil as well) was Eddie Futch. Futch was in my opinion the single best strategist ever and I go back and forth with him and Arcel as to who is the best corner man of all time.

Eddie Futch.

[Robbi]

Originally Posted by Stonehands89

Clancy may be my favorite expert commentator as well as a favorite trainer. Emile was built on his brain. I still hold a bit of a grudge against him for the advice he gave De La Hoya that prompted the Trinidad loss. And I am not positive that he was the best psychologist for post-Zaire Foreman. Foreman needed that as much as a sensible training regiment... he had to be rebuilt from the inside out!

As it was, it took Jesus and a 10 year lay-off didn't it...

The Ali foil (and for that matter, the Jones and Holyfield foil as well) was Eddie Futch. Futch was in my opinion the single best strategist ever and I go back and forth with him and Arcel as to who is the best corner man of all time.

Eddie Futch.

Clancy and Alcazar were a good partnership for De La Hoya's corner. Alcazar handled the daily duties, with Clancy arriving at Big Bear about three weeks before each fight to put the final touches on De La Hoya's preparation. No doubt Clancy's old age played a part strictly being a consultant for De La Hoya, rather than the head trainer. Arcel came out of retirement like Clancy did to handle Duran in much the same way. The difference between the two corner teams, between rounds it was Arcel who gave Duran most of the advice rather than Brown, while it was Alcazar who got De La Hoya's ear more often than Clancy. Many people in camp were split on exactly what strategy De La Hoya should have used against Trinidad. Some said be aggressive, while others opted for the cuter approach he eventually employed.

[Duodenum]

Originally Posted by Stonehands89

Clancy may be my favorite expert commentator as well as a favorite trainer. Emile was built on his brain. I still hold a bit of a grudge against him for the advice he gave De La Hoya that prompted the Trinidad loss. And I am not positive that he was the best psychologist for post-Zaire Foreman. Foreman needed that as much as a sensible training regiment... he had to be rebuilt from the inside out!

As it was, it took Jesus and a 10 year lay-off didn't it...

The Ali foil (and for that matter, the Jones and Holyfield foil as well) was Eddie Futch. Futch was in my opinion the single best strategist ever and I go back and forth with him and Arcel as to who is the best corner man of all time.

Eddie Futch.

I have to admit, I liked the distinctive sound of Clancy's voice on those CBS broadcasts, and thought he and Tim Ryan made an enjoyable team. Have you read Corner Men: Great Boxing Trainers, by Ronald K. Fried? For me, that clinched my opinion that Eddie Futch was the sport's foremost strategist. (Larry Holmes has also stated that while Arcel was a superb cut man and corner man, Futch really knew his business.) This shouldn't be tremendously surprising. Although Arcel started much earlier in boxing than Futch, Ray was completely out of the sport for around 20 years, resulting in Futch surpassing him as the most experienced trainer in boxing history.

In Arcel's 1972 comeback with Peppermint Frazer, he brilliantly engineered Frazer's dethroning of Nicolino Locche. However, Ray was never able to produce a challenger to dethrone Joe Louis, going 0-15 against the Brown Bomber before Joe's comeback against Ezzard Charles. On the other hand, Futch is well known as Ali's nemesis (even more so, since Ali sometimes didn't listen to Dundee's advice), and Eddie was the architect of Mike Spinks's brilliant LH career. Nobody was able to beat Larry Holmes with Futch and Arcel in his corner, or even put Larry on the deck (Ritchie Giachetti was still his trainer for Shavers and Snipes). Larry has stated that his physical peak was achieved while working with Futch and Arcel, a key factor in my rating of peak Holmes in the all-time HW top three (along with peak Dempsey and peak Ali).

I think Clancy and Griffith really put each other in the IBHOF. For all the rounds Griffith fought, he didn't appear to sustain any noticable brain damage from boxing. (That came as a result of being mugged and beaten up, long after he retired.) Perhaps it made a difference that Clancy has a Masters in Phys Ed. (A remarkable level of education for a fight trainer.)

Although Foreman shortened up his punches under Clancy's tutelage, he did disregard the recommendation to acclimate to conditions in Puerto Rico. The idea of Futch strategizing for George against Ali is an intriguing thought (and one Muhammad might be very relieved to have never had materialize).

[Robbi]

Originally Posted by Duodenum

I have to admit, I liked the distinctive sound of Clancy's voice on those CBS broadcasts, and thought he and Tim Ryan made an enjoyable team. Have you read Corner Men: Great Boxing Trainers, by Ronald K. Fried? For me, that clinched my opinion that Eddie Futch was the sport's foremost strategist. (Larry Holmes has also stated that while Arcel was a superb cut man and corner man, Futch really knew his business.) This shouldn't be tremendously surprising. Although Arcel started much earlier in boxing than Futch, Ray was completely out of the sport for around 20 years, resulting in Futch surpassing him as the most experienced trainer in boxing history.

In Arcel's 1972 comeback with Peppermint Frazer, he brilliantly engineered Frazer's dethroning of Nicolino Locche. However, Ray was never able to produce a challenger to dethrone Joe Louis, going 0-15 against the Brown Bomber before Joe's comeback against Ezzard Charles. On the other hand, Futch is well known as Ali's nemesis (even more so, since Ali sometimes didn't listen to Dundee's advice), and Eddie was the architect of Mike Spinks's brilliant LH career. Nobody was able to beat Larry Holmes with Futch and Arcel in his corner, or even put Larry on the deck (Ritchie Giachetti was still his trainer for Shavers and Snipes). Larry has stated that his physical peak was achieved while working with Futch and Arcel, a key factor in my rating of peak Holmes in the all-time HW top three (along with peak Dempsey and peak Ali).

I think Clancy and Griffith really put each other in the IBHOF. For all the rounds Griffith fought, he didn't appear to sustain any noticable brain damage from boxing. (That came as a result of being mugged and beaten up, long after he retired.) Perhaps it made a difference that Clancy has a Masters in Phys Ed. (A remarkable level of education for a fight trainer.)

Although Foreman shortened up his punches under Clancy's tutelage, he did disregard the recommendation to acclimate to conditions in Puerto Rico. The idea of Futch strategizing for George against Ali is an intriguing thought (and one Muhammad might be very relieved to have never had materialize).

Holmes was floored under the guidance of Futch and Arcel. Giachetti left Holmes just prior to his fight with Berbick during early 1981. It was a money dispute which forced Holmes and himself to part ways. Giachetti wanted a higher percentage than Holmes was offering him. Futch and Arcel were then drafted in to work the corner for the Berbick fight on short notice, which if memory serves me correctly was possibly no more than a week. Holmes sure did have those two cagey veterans as apart of his team for the Berbick fight, right up until Holmes fought Williams. And we know why Futch left and Giachetti was once again trainer before Holmes shared a ring with M Spinks.

The fights following Holmes 15 round decision over Berbick during 1981, L Spinks, then Snipes.