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Old 05-18-2012, 03:11 PM   #16
scurlaruntings
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Default Re: Cormier on Josh Barnetts Generation

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What you mean didnt evolve?

Cro Cop developed from the guy taken down by Wandy when he 1st came over to the best sprawl and brawler in the game barring maybe Liddel. Nog was a JJ guy with decent hands who just got old, and is now training the UFC Champ, who's a boxer with decent Jits. Fedor was a TD + GNP guy who slowly added subs and strikes and did pretty damn well at both. And the only up and comer Fedor fought was Brett ****ing Rodgers, you saw how evolved he was compared to the guys who did eventually beat Fedor...And I think Barnett is much more skilled than Cormier, but time will tell if he's past it or not. And if he's not and Dan beats him fair and square, I'll give Cormier full credit. But I wont call him more evolved

I hate this ''evolved'' bullshit when it's taken for granted.
It's just best to ignore it. When Fedor and CC were in their prime they were described as the best well rounded fighters in the sport. Now that their star has waned fans start saying they didn't evolve. Its complete bullshit.
CC had no take down defence to speak of when he came from the K-1. He developed one of the best if not THE best at heavy. So much so that he made Mark Colemans repeated take down attempts -when they fought- look ridiculous.
Bottom line is if Big Foot, Werdum, and Henderson represent the so called evolution of the sport then its very obvious a lot of fans haven't been paying any attention.
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Old 05-18-2012, 03:13 PM   #17
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Default Re: Cormier on Josh Barnetts Generation

I don't know about this one. I'm thinking Cormier is going to take it. Barnett is going to have a tough time taking it to the mat, and it will likely end up being a boxing match. Cormier's hands seem to improve quite a bit each fight, and Barnett's striking is all around pretty solid. To me, it's a 50/50 fight. Barnett has a ton more MMA experience, but Cormier has been competing his entire life in wrestling, so I'm not sure if experience is going to play a massive role.
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Old 05-18-2012, 03:14 PM   #18
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Default Re: Cormier on Josh Barnetts Generation

I think it's true that the lower weight classes skill sets have improved immensely and there's more strength in depth. but when you look at it, the HW division is taking much slower to develop imo Not surprising when you consider how big these guys are and how relatively uncoordinated their bodies are compared to an Aldo, Jones or Rory Mac for example who've popped up in their early 20's looking the real deal already
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Old 05-18-2012, 03:16 PM   #19
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Default Re: Cormier on Josh Barnetts Generation

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Well if its not in reference to Barnett why mention a wry anecdote like that? Royce or Shamrock are hardly a bench mark to measure the sport by now when both are as good as retired.
Reality is that journos would be constantly bringing up the experience issue. Cormier has probably turned around and said 'Look I've only had 9 fights but I have always fought and trained in the modern era as a true mixed martial artist utilising all styles, so the gap in experience isn't quite as big as it looks on paper as many of his early fights were in a more basic era'

At the end of the day he is about to fight Josh Barnet who is massively more experienced and has been asked about the gap in experience, what is he going to say? Like when grapplers say they are going to stand and trade with strikers in pre fight interviews it's all bravado and mind games. Take it with a pinch of salt Scurla, I'm sure he respects all the old school guys plenty.
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Old 05-18-2012, 03:22 PM   #20
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Default Re: Cormier on Josh Barnetts Generation

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[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Chubby guy with shit technique but powerful punches and questionable cardio with little/zero submission experience...hmmm

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Im so glad we've evolved from wrestlers with right hands...
What the **** is this? Are you serious? You seem to be taking the word 'evolve' a bit literally and pointing out that the fighters haven't developed wings or mastered levetation in the past decade. Yes they are both a bit chunky and blokes usually hit hard with their right hand. Are you really saying that there is no difference in skill and ability between these two guys?
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Old 05-18-2012, 03:26 PM   #21
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Default Re: Cormier on Josh Barnetts Generation

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What the **** is this? Are you serious? You seem to be taking the word 'evolve' a bit literally and pointing out that the fighters haven't developed wings or mastered levetation in the past decade. Yes they are both a bit chunky and blokes usually hit hard with their right hand. Are you really saying that there is no difference in skill and ability between these two guys?
You made two posts in a row with out mentioning Jon Jones, well done

Of course I wasnt being serious. Cormier is better than Tank but he's still employing the same stylistic principles as Tank did back in the day, which I found ironic. he's not exactly a well rounded fighter himself is he. Tough to take down, and hits hard, a fat Chuck, who's hayday was the very same time he was dismissing
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Old 05-18-2012, 03:31 PM   #22
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Default Re: Cormier on Josh Barnetts Generation

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You made two posts in a row with out mentioning Jon Jones, well done

Of course I wasnt being serious. Cormier is better than Tank but he's still employing the same stylistic principles as Tank did back in the day, which I found ironic. he's not exactly a well rounded fighter himself is he. Tough to take down, and hits hard, a fat Chuck, who's hayday was the very same time he was dismissing
Obviously the 90īs and the Vale-Tudo days were very different, when it was one art vs one art things were different and fighters were only good in their thing.....
But yeah, we talked about this a bit before in other thread a while ago, definitely people exaggerate when talk about this "evolve thing" nowadays.....
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Old 05-18-2012, 03:33 PM   #23
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Default Re: Cormier on Josh Barnetts Generation

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You made two posts in a row with out mentioning Jon Jones, well done

Of course I wasnt being serious. Cormier is better than Tank but he's still employing the same stylistic principles as Tank did back in the day, which I found ironic. he's not exactly a well rounded fighter himself is he. Tough to take down, and hits hard, a fat Chuck, who's hayday was the very same time he was dismissing
Why would I, an MMA fan, not talk about a fighter like Jon Jones on Jon Jones threads? Is it like bands when you were a teenager, you only like them when they are underground then have to disown them when they hit big because they are uncool? You ****ing hipster idiot.
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Old 05-18-2012, 03:38 PM   #24
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Default Re: Cormier on Josh Barnetts Generation

I was being nice
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Old 05-18-2012, 03:41 PM   #25
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Default Re: Cormier on Josh Barnetts Generation

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Obviously the 90īs and the Vale-Tudo days were very different, when it was one art vs one art things were different and fighters were only good in their thing.....
But yeah, we talked about this a bit before in other thread a while ago, definitely people exaggerate when talk about this "evolve thing" nowadays.....
The sport has changed, there's better fighters now than ever before and more of them.

But there's a lot of Fighter A beats Fighter B because B fought in 2005 and the sports evolved so A must be better

it's not like we are comparing eras like a John L Sullivan v Tyson type match up
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Old 05-18-2012, 04:02 PM   #26
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Default Re: Cormier on Josh Barnetts Generation

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What the **** is this? Are you serious? You seem to be taking the word 'evolve' a bit literally and pointing out that the fighters haven't developed wings or mastered levetation in the past decade. Yes they are both a bit chunky and blokes usually hit hard with their right hand. Are you really saying that there is no difference in skill and ability between these two guys?
No ones saying there's no difference in ability. But its too easy to dismiss Tank now that his career is done. Tank in his prime was seen as one of the best fighters at heavy in the UFC. Either way what's the real difference fundamentally between the two? Both have/had a wrestling background. And both had heavy hands although Tank is/was probably the stronger of the two and the heavier handed. Considering Cormier doesn't offer much other than good hands and a solid wrestling base where's the evolution in skills?
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Old 05-18-2012, 04:14 PM   #27
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Default Re: Cormier on Josh Barnetts Generation

Somebody got the tongue in cheek aspect whilst I also made a point then
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Old 05-18-2012, 04:39 PM   #28
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Default Re: Cormier on Josh Barnetts Generation

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He has a point. More fighters are more well rounded and it is harder to get the victory. CC didn't evolve, neither did Fedor, Nog tried to but perhaps it was too late. Similar for Fedor and CC maybe. Barnett seems to be doing okay, maybe because he has the best base in wrestling and throws the jits and hands on top.

Lets look at the new breeds who are supposed to be so well rounded, so tell me how many submission wins JDS, Cain Velasquez and Brock Lesnar has?

The old guard like Fedor, Overeem, AS and Barnett are far more well rounded. Guys like Fedor was a top level judoka and samboist fighter who is very very good at striking as well, guys like Overeem is also a very good kickboxer who is pretty damn good on the mat.

I think MMA has devolved and has gone away from guys being a top level at one field to very very good in everything else. Today all you have is everyone being just ok at all skills.
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Old 05-18-2012, 04:43 PM   #29
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Lets look at the new breeds who are supposed to be so well rounded, so tell me how many submission wins JDS, Cain Velasquez and Brock Lesnar has?

The old guard like Fedor, Overeem, AS and Barnett are far more well rounded. Guys like Fedor was a top level judoka and samboist fighter who is very very good at striking as well, guys like Overeem is also a very good kickboxer who is pretty damn good on the mat.

I think MMA has devolved and has gone away from guys being a top level at one field to very very good in everything else
. Today all you have is everyone being just ok at all skills.
I agree with all of this. Fans for what ever reason are too quick to dismiss fighters that have grown old citing they have not evolved. When there is no evidence at all -most certainly at heavyweight that is- that the fighters are evolving. The only thing that has happened is they've gotten bigger. Skillwise though they are certainly weaker.
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Old 05-18-2012, 04:52 PM   #30
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Default Re: Cormier on Josh Barnetts Generation

Mma
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