Cormier on Josh Barnetts Generation

[Ubersteve]

Originally Posted by Stoo

Read my post above fella, it aint true. GSP's wrestling was great before Matt. No doubt it got better though

I wouldn't say it was great, I would say he knew some takedowns from cross training and then got inspired into training properly in that discipline. I don't see the GSP of the Karo fight being able to take Koscheck or Hughes down.

[Stoo]

He's relied on his wrestling more and more, but he wasnt exactly an all out stand up fighter before the Hughes fight. He developed to a point where he could keep the fight standing against grapples, or take down the strikers.

[scurlaruntings]

Originally Posted by Ubersteve

I think Jones has the Fedor aura about him. I really don't think anyone could come close to beating the guy.

GSP is different I agree in that he lost, went away and evolved, embraced a weakness and eventually turned it into his biggest strength.



But then Anderson Silva is the most dominant fighter ever, so who knows?

Don't see this at all mate. In the UFC division at 205 maybe, as its very thin on the ground right now. Soon as Jones moves to heavy he looses.

[Ubersteve]

Originally Posted by Stoo

He's relied on his wrestling more and more, but he wasnt exactly an all out stand up fighter before the Hughes fight. He developed to a point where he could keep the fight standing against grapples, or take down the strikers.

He's the true prototype in terms of evolution. The guy who excels both on the ground and in the feet and can also choose where he wants the fight to be incase the other guy is a close match for him at either aspect. He's a prototype in that the only way to beat him is to excel on the feet and on the ground and be able to put him where you can beat him.

[scurlaruntings]

Originally Posted by Ubersteve

He evolved and concentrated on his wretling to a great extent. It became his focus, he was the first top level guy to embrace something that wasn't his speciality above what originally brought him to the dance. He's certainly the first athelete in MMA talented enough to concentrate on the disciplines of others and totally outshine them in it, rag-dolling elite wrestlers like Koscheck. He's the best wrestler in MMA and he doesn't have a wrestling background, which is just incredible.

Well he didn't exactly rag doll Koscheck. He just jabbed the shit out of him for 5 boring rounds. And i'm tired of hearing of Koschecks wrestling. When was the last time Kos grappled ****ed the shit out of an opponent?

[Stoo]

Originally Posted by Ubersteve

I wouldn't say it was great, I would say he knew some takedowns from cross training and then got inspired into training properly in that discipline. I don't see the GSP of the Karo fight being able to take Koscheck or Hughes down.

He never did take Hughes down until after the Kos fight and he was good enough to dominate Sherk, Penn, Karo and even Trigg whilst Kos was still on the Ultimate Fight Night card. Those are high level grappling guys considering GSP had little experience relatively speaking

[Ubersteve]

Originally Posted by scurlaruntings

Don't see this at all mate. In the UFC division at 205 maybe, as its very thin on the ground right now. Soon as Jones moves to heavy he looses.

Idk, I would favour him over most heavies I think, time will tell in that regard. He still has the reach advantage over most of them and takedowns that are tough to stop for all but top wrestlers and insane balance on top once he gets there.

I think if they gave him a taster match against someone like Kongo, people would take his credentials a little more seriously once he utterly murdered him.


Whatever people say about JJ and the division, the fact is it was a compeitive division before he came along and he has now beaten 4 UFC champions and is about to face the last Strikeforce champion.

[AJAX]

Back to the original comment, I think Barnet has improved somewhat, especially in his boxing. He was a mostly a grappler when he came in but then evolved to have good hands to compliment his ground game. His 2 fights against Pedro showed his improvemnt.

[Ubersteve]

Originally Posted by scurlaruntings

Well he didn't exactly rag doll Koscheck. He just jabbed the shit out of him for 5 boring rounds. And i'm tired of hearing of Koschecks wrestling. When was the last time Kos grappled ****ed the shit out of an opponent?

He rag-dolled him in their first fight, took him down at will. The title fight he played it safe, yeah.

Kos doesn't go for takedowns as much as he should, but easy to take down he isn't

[Ubersteve]

Originally Posted by Stoo

He never did take Hughes down until after the Kos fight and he was good enough to dominate Sherk, Penn, Karo and even Trigg whilst Kos was still on the Ultimate Fight Night card. Those are high level grappling guys considering GSP had little experience relatively speaking

Sherk is a midget compared to him, though. Karo isn't exactly a wrestling guy, Trigg is Trigg. He was a good fighter and a more exciting fighter. His present form is ridiculously effective.

[scurlaruntings]

Originally Posted by Ubersteve

Idk, I would favour him over most heavies I think, time will tell in that regard. He still has the reach advantage over most of them and takedowns that are tough to stop for all but top wrestlers and insane balance on top once he gets there.

I think if they gave him a taster match against someone like Kongo, people would take his credentials a little more seriously once he utterly murdered him.


Whatever people say about JJ and the division, the fact is it was a compeitive division before he came along and he has now beaten 4 UFC champions and is about to face the last Strikeforce champion.

Whilst this is true. 205 has never seen an unorthodox fighter with that kind of length before in the UFC.

And he doesn't have any physical advantages at heavy. Most of those guys are 6ft 3 plus and heavier than him and that includes Kongo. He's certainly not dealing with any of them in the manner his putting guys away at at 205.

[Stoo]

Originally Posted by Ubersteve

Sherk is a midget compared to him, though. Karo isn't exactly a wrestling guy, Trigg is Trigg. He was a good fighter and a more exciting fighter. His present form is ridiculously effective.

Yes, but for guy considered a striker to take them down...point missed I think. You obviously havent seen the fights and how much GSP outgrappled them

The midget was good enough to out grapple Nick Diaz, the only two guys at WW who beat him in that aspect were Hughes and GSP, 1 & 2 in the ATG terms. Karo is a WORLD CLASS Judoka trained by Gene Lebell and was only take down consistently by GSP, and Georges dominated Trigg more than Hughes conuld ever dream

[scurlaruntings]

Originally Posted by Ubersteve

He rag-dolled him in their first fight, took him down at will. The title fight he played it safe, yeah.

Kos doesn't go for takedowns as much as he should, but easy to take down he isn't

Been a while since iv seen the first fight. But i think you're right from what i can vaguely remember. And could point on the last statement. Kos is VERY hard to take down. But over all i'm not sure how much that means when only a handful of guys at 170 have been able to apply their wrestling effectively. Matter of fact GSP did it better than Hughes who simply over powered many opponents with technique and brute strength. But we don't see that GSP anymore.

[Ubersteve]

Originally Posted by scurlaruntings

Whilst this is true. 205 has never seen an unorthodox fighter with that kind of length before in the UFC.

And he doesn't have any physical advantages at heavy. Most of those guys are 6ft 3 plus and heavier than him and that includes Kongo. He's certainly not dealing with any of them in the manner his putting guys away at at 205.

I think people overplay his physical advantages, as much as it's easy to say it's just the reach I think people ignore the fact that he's an incredibly varied and economical striker who is very hard to read, that he has an excellent and heavy shot, that he uses his hips incredibly on the floor and that he's brutal and ruthless whenever he gets a window.

I think he gives most heavies a lot of trouble. Especially if he fills out a bit.

[Ubersteve]

Originally Posted by Stoo

Yes, but for guy considered a striker to take them down...point missed I think. You obviously havent seen the fights and how much GSP outgrappled them

I've seen every GSP fight in the UFC. He was a competent all rounder who was able to take people down, like several people in the UFC are. He was not an unstoppable force who could take people down whenever he wants to. Present day GSP can take people down whenever he wants to and there doesn't seem to be anything anyone can do about it, his success rate in takedowns is insane.