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Old 05-21-2012, 01:06 PM   #1
aj415
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Default Who was the best? Examples of boxers displaying personal integrity / moral courage

There are countless fighters in the sports history who have displayed time and again gigante cahones by showing thier PHYSICAL courage, bravery and valor - thier willingness to risk and sacrifice thier personal health when stepping into the squared circle. In fact, without these qualities its impossible to have authentic success in boxing or any fighting sport.

However this thread is about a different form of courage - the type displayed away from the ring, the type needed to stand up for principles and ideals. In this case about anecdotes/boxers in recent or ancient history, who they were and what they did to stand up for personal convictions or objective moral values.

I will start with the ultimate example and the most famous and also a bit of a cop-out with an example that everyone on this forum and thier mother's know about, that is Muhammad Ali deciding that the value of a successful boxing career, financial success, and fame were not nearly as valuable as choosing to stand up for what he thought at the time the religious group he ascribed to, and more overall what he viewed as a personal attack on his religious principles and ideals.

Everyone now knows that the group was an extremist group which as a whole practiced questionable morals itself (didn't I read somewhere elijah muhammad impregnating multiple preteens?), but i think you would be hardpressed to find anyone who believed Ali participated/knew/would have gotten involved with this group if he knew of the dishonest manipulation tactics in the leadership.

This is probably the example with the most notoriety in the sport, and one that exemplifies the qualities discussed. But this discussion doesn't have to be about famous or well-known actions. The fact that boxing was involved in that situation is not the point, just that it happened to be a boxer who made a decision displaying personal integrity.


With that start, what/who are some other examples?

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Old 05-21-2012, 01:18 PM   #2
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Default Re: Who was the best? Examples of boxers displaying personal integrity / moral courag

I don't know, maybe Ali just didn't want to deal with the inconvenience of military service rather than it being a moral imperative first and foremost. It's impossible to know. Only he knows, and that's all that should matter to him if he was genuine - his own conscience.

I do know that he got off lightly compared to most others who refused to be drafted, because he was rich and famous.
I think people lose that sense of perspective. Most men who refused the draft didn't have the lawyers and supporters that were at Ali's disposal, so they had to flee the country or serve years in jail !
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Old 05-21-2012, 01:27 PM   #3
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Default Re: Who was the best? Examples of boxers displaying personal integrity / moral courag

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I don't know, maybe Ali just didn't want to deal with the inconvenience of military service rather than it being a moral imperative first and foremost. It's impossible to know. Only he knows, and that's all that should matter to him if he was genuine - his own conscience.

I do know that he got off lightly compared to most others who refused to be drafted, because he was rich and famous.
I think people lose that sense of perspective. Most men who refused the draft didn't have the lawyers and supporters that were at Ali's disposal, so they had to flee the country or serve years in jail !
Thats nonsense, not to be disrespectful, but remember at the time there was no guarantee if he did not join the army that he would ever be able to box again, he made the decision facing that unknown.

How does that compare to the 'inconvenience of military service' when in all likelihood he probably, and I wouldn't be surprised if he unofficially told BY the army, that he would have gotten comfortable Joe Louis type treatment.

The most convenient thing to do would have been to join the army, if thats what the issue was.

Anyway don't want to get sidetracked with that example it has been discussed to death, buried and reincarnated, discussed to death again 1000x's.

I will agree to disagree.
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Old 05-21-2012, 04:34 PM   #4
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Default Re: Who was the best? Examples of boxers displaying personal integrity / moral courag

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Thats nonsense, not to be disrespectful, but remember at the time there was no guarantee if he did not join the army that he would ever be able to box again, he made the decision facing that unknown.

How does that compare to the 'inconvenience of military service' when in all likelihood he probably, and I wouldn't be surprised if he unofficially told BY the army, that he would have gotten comfortable Joe Louis type treatment.

The most convenient thing to do would have been to join the army, if thats what the issue was.
As I said, only he knows for sure. I'm not saying one way or another. Being drafted in to the military is always inconvenient to some extent because you simply give yourself over to superior officers to decide what you are doing. I'm not sure "Joe Louis treatment" was a walk in the park either. They had it easier than ordinary soldiers but it was still military service, constantly on duty and under the orders of superior officers.

Ali took a gamble, that's true. He had balls, there's no question about it. But it ended up he didn't lose his freedom at all, despite being blacklisted in his profession. He carried on making a fair bit of money doing personal appearances - like many celebrities have to resort to anyway - and he carried on talking very loudly about the issue. His wealth, fame, lawyers and friends seem to have kept him out of serious trouble. Let's not exaggerate his suffering. He came back and made a ton of cash too.

Quote:
Anyway don't want to get sidetracked with that example it has been discussed to death, buried and reincarnated, discussed to death again 1000x's.

I will agree to disagree.
Yeah, but I can't think of any examples.
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Old 05-21-2012, 05:01 PM   #5
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Default Re: Who was the best? Examples of boxers displaying personal integrity / moral courag

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Originally Posted by aj415 View Post
There are countless fighters in the sports history who have displayed time and again gigante cahones by showing thier PHYSICAL courage, bravery and valor - thier willingness to risk and sacrifice thier personal health when stepping into the squared circle. In fact, without these qualities its impossible to have authentic success in boxing or any fighting sport.

However this thread is about a different form of courage - the type displayed away from the ring, the type needed to stand up for principles and ideals. In this case about anecdotes/boxers in recent or ancient history, who they were and what they did to stand up for personal convictions or objective moral values.

I will start with the ultimate example and the most famous and also a bit of a cop-out with an example that everyone on this forum and thier mother's know about, that is Muhammad Ali deciding that the value of a successful boxing career, financial success, and fame were not nearly as valuable as choosing to stand up for what he thought at the time the religious group he ascribed to, and more overall what he viewed as a personal attack on his religious principles and ideals.

Everyone now knows that the group was an extremist group which as a whole practiced questionable morals itself (didn't I read somewhere elijah muhammad impregnating multiple preteens?), but i think you would be hardpressed to find anyone who believed Ali participated/knew/would have gotten involved with this group if he knew of the dishonest manipulation tactics in the leadership.

This is probably the example with the most notoriety in the sport, and one that exemplifies the qualities discussed. But this discussion doesn't have to be about famous or well-known actions. The fact that boxing was involved in that situation is not the point, just that it happened to be a boxer who made a decision displaying personal integrity.


With that start, what/who are some other examples?
Ali joining a HATE GROUP,and avoiding military services,whilst other young men hating to go, but honoring their duty and served, was NOT an act of personal integrity...Any more than a bank robber , robbing a bank because
he needed money for his family...Not one of us can not claim we avoiding
a duty, could not come up with a rational excuse for our act...Was Clay/Ali
more NOBLE than the vast majority of Americans who despised leaving their jobs and loved one's, but served in the armed forces, because the law
of the land required them to do so, displayed less integrity than a Clay did at that time. ? No. I say...If we don't like the law, we should vote the bums out or face the consequences of our act, otherwise we would have anarchy...My contention is that anyone can say that they displayed "integrity" for whatever act they commit. It is called "rationalization ".
INTEGRITY...
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Old 05-21-2012, 06:20 PM   #6
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Default Re: Who was the best? Examples of boxers displaying personal integrity / moral courag

Max Schmeling.

Schmeling risked his life by hiding two Jewish children in his home during Kristallnacht. He later saw to it they escaped Germany and were sent to the US.

He helped support Joe Louis, financially, during the later part of Joe's life. Schmeling even paid for his funeral.
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Old 05-21-2012, 09:37 PM   #7
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Default Re: Who was the best? Examples of boxers displaying personal integrity / moral courag

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Max Schmeling.

Schmeling risked his life by hiding two Jewish children in his home during Kristallnacht. He later saw to it they escaped Germany and were sent to the US.

He helped support Joe Louis, financially, during the later part of Joe's life. Schmeling even paid for his funeral.
He also refused to kow tow to the Nazis and inflammed Goebbels and Hitler,(and others I'm sure) by refusing to fire the Jewish Joe Jacobs as his trainer.
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Old 05-21-2012, 09:39 PM   #8
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Default Re: Who was the best? Examples of boxers displaying personal integrity / moral courag

Max Schmeling, in fact possesed more balls and moral courage than any fighter..far more than Ali, or anyone else, with the possible exception of Barney Ross.
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Old 05-21-2012, 09:40 PM   #9
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Default Re: Who was the best? Examples of boxers displaying personal integrity / moral courag

Exactly Red, great mention......I was about to say Max here.....
Floyd Patterson was an admirable person also.....
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Old 05-21-2012, 09:46 PM   #10
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Default Re: Who was the best? Examples of boxers displaying personal integrity / moral courag

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Exactly Red, great mention......I was about to say Max here.....
Floyd Patterson was an admirable person also.....
Thanks Vic, lol...I just got finished editing a boo boo of mine, as Max's trainer was JOE Jacobs, and not "Jimmy"...and i agree with you about Floyd Patterson...he was in fact the first guy I thought of, and in a different sense, he was perhaps the guy that fits the bill for this thread..but the more I read about Schmeling I have to conclude that he was either super courageous or he had a secret death wish in his disregard of the Nazis..
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Old 05-21-2012, 10:06 PM   #11
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Default Re: Who was the best? Examples of boxers displaying personal integrity / moral courag

The Schmeling shout is a great one. The difference between him and Ali is that Schmeling put his own safety at risk to preserve the life and well-being of another. All Ali did was get used as a mouthpiece for the Black Muslims (at worst) or use the occasion to further their political/social cause as perhaps his own idea at best.

Big, big difference.
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Old 05-21-2012, 10:26 PM   #12
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Default Re: Who was the best? Examples of boxers displaying personal integrity / moral courag

Schmeling had so much to lose in the choices he made..he was a truly courageous man.
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Old 05-21-2012, 10:26 PM   #13
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Default Re: Who was the best? Examples of boxers displaying personal integrity / moral courag

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Max Schmeling, in fact possesed more balls and moral courage than any fighter..far more than Ali, or anyone else, with the possible exception of Barney Ross.
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Old 05-21-2012, 10:27 PM   #14
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In a boxing sense, Max displayed the same kind of courage in the way he faced the young Joe Louis and fearlessly stuck to his game plan for an amazing upset.
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Old 05-21-2012, 10:37 PM   #15
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I always respected Joe Louis, who always looked out for the fellow black soldiers but also made speeches and quotes to motivate the county and the soldiers....Joe took the high road and set an example for future great blacks like Martin Luther King..Joe did it with love and faith like MLK not hate

Also Max Schmeling who like Red Cobra said took real chances and put his life on the line to save humans. It goes to show you an older Italian friend of mine was a prisoner of war and was held by the Japanese and then transported to Italy( where they mocked him for being a spoiled Italian American) then to the Germans, I don't know the story to the fine detail so some of this may be mixed up but in the end he was held by the Germans and was being transported by train along with some Jewish prisoners when the train caught on fire and a German soldier risked his life to break open the door and free the prisoners. It shows you that while governments can be bad, there are still some good people.

While I am on this story I have many Jewish friends that were hidden by Nuns and Priests and families in Italy so again while leaders may be evil, good people do good things and that is so nice to hear.
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