Who was the best? Examples of boxers displaying personal integrity / moral courage

[Bummy Davis]

I always respected Joe Louis, who always looked out for the fellow black soldiers but also made speeches and quotes to motivate the county and the soldiers....Joe took the high road and set an example for future great blacks like Martin Luther King..Joe did it with love and faith like MLK not hate

Also Max Schmeling who like Red Cobra said took real chances and put his life on the line to save humans. It goes to show you an older Italian friend of mine was a prisoner of war and was held by the Japanese and then transported to Italy( where they mocked him for being a spoiled Italian American) then to the Germans, I don't know the story to the fine detail so some of this may be mixed up but in the end he was held by the Germans and was being transported by train along with some Jewish prisoners when the train caught on fire and a German soldier risked his life to break open the door and free the prisoners. It shows you that while governments can be bad, there are still some good people.

While I am on this story I have many Jewish friends that were hidden by Nuns and Priests and families in Italy so again while leaders may be evil, good people do good things and that is so nice to hear.

[red cobra]

Originally Posted by Bummy Davis

I always respected Joe Louis, who always looked out for the fellow black soldiers but also made speeches and quotes to motivate the county and the soldiers....Joe took the high road and set an example for future great blacks like Martin Luther King..Joe did it with love and faith like MLK not hate

Also Max Schmeling who like Red Cobra said took real chances and put his life on the line to save humans. It goes to show you an older Italian friend of mine was a prisoner of war and was held by the Japanese and then transported to Italy( where they mocked him for being a spoiled Italian American) then to the Germans, I don't know the story to the fine detail so some of this may be mixed up but in the end he was held by the Germans and was being transported by train along with some Jewish prisoners when the train caught on fire and a German soldier risked his life to break open the door and free the prisoners. It shows you that while governments can be bad, there are still some good people.

While I am on this story I have many Jewish friends that were hidden by Nuns and Priests and families in Italy so again while leaders may be evil, good people do good things and that is so nice to hear.

That's very true, just as in Nazi occupied Poland, a notoriously antiSemetic country, there were many courageous and good Poles who risked their lives as well as their familiy's lives by hiding Jews from the Nazis.

[Manassa]

Originally Posted by burt bienstock

Ali joining a HATE GROUP,and avoiding military services,whilst other young men hating to go, but honoring their duty and served, was NOT an act of personal integrity...Any more than a bank robber , robbing a bank because
he needed money for his family...Not one of us can not claim we avoiding
a duty, could not come up with a rational excuse for our act...Was Clay/Ali
more NOBLE than the vast majority of Americans who despised leaving their jobs and loved one's, but served in the armed forces, because the law
of the land required them to do so, displayed less integrity than a Clay did at that time. ? No. I say...If we don't like the law, we should vote the bums out or face the consequences of our act, otherwise we would have anarchy...My contention is that anyone can say that they displayed "integrity" for whatever act they commit. It is called "rationalization ".
INTEGRITY...

In contrast to this, who is to say the 'law of the land' is right? After all, nobody chooses where they are born or by which body they are governed. On one hand you can say those young soldiers were honourable and Ali dishonourable but on the other you could describe them as ignorant and Ali as enlightened. Not that I'm entirely in favour of Ali's reasons not to go to war, but I'm in favour of him not going. I certainly wouldn't let someone pack up my shit and deliver me in a foreign country to fight a war that isn't my own.

Some wars, maybe, but not others.

[Thread Stealer]

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[devon]

Originally Posted by burt bienstock

Ali joining a HATE GROUP,and avoiding military services,whilst other young men hating to go, but honoring their duty and served, was NOT an act of personal integrity...Any more than a bank robber , robbing a bank because
he needed money for his family...Not one of us can not claim we avoiding
a duty, could not come up with a rational excuse for our act...Was Clay/Ali
more NOBLE than the vast majority of Americans who despised leaving their jobs and loved one's, but served in the armed forces, because the law
of the land required them to do so, displayed less integrity than a Clay did at that time. ? No. I say...If we don't like the law, we should vote the bums out or face the consequences of our act, otherwise we would have anarchy...My contention is that anyone can say that they displayed "integrity" for whatever act they commit. It is called "rationalization ".
INTEGRITY...

Did you just call islam a hate group
Also Ali didn't join the army because of his religious beliefs. Also his family already had enough money. The fact is Ali stood up for something he believed in if that isn't integrity then i don't know what is.

[burt bienstock]

Originally Posted by Manassa

In contrast to this, who is to say the 'law of the land' is right? After all, nobody chooses where they are born or by which body they are governed by. On one hand you can say those young soldiers were honourable and Ali dishonourable but on the other you could describe them as ignorant and Ali as enlightened. Not that I'm entirely in favour of Ali's reasons not to go to war, but I'm in favour of him not going. I certainly wouldn't let someone pack up my shit and deliver me in a foreign country to fight a war that isn't my own.

Some wars, maybe, but not others.

So, let's take YOUR actions for doing what you personally FELT,and refusing to do what the law REQUIRED to the EXTREME...We will have anarchy as anyone would decide what law to obey or disobey...CAN YOU NOT SEE THIS SELFISH behavior can only result in a disolvment of our democracy ? Damn it we are a nation of laws whether you sir, like it or not.
I would love to hear you call my era of servicemen who went through hell and survived, IGNORANT to their faces...You somehow think that because you don't like a law and say "fuck it" , you are smarter or more morally endowed then the VAST majority of brave men who saw their duty dangerous and difficult though it might be, swore an oath to the land they
loved and followed the darn law... That is democracy at work, and I believe as the great Winston Churchill said, "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others ". We cannot today in this small world close our eyes to outside danger, and we cannot put on blindfolds
and deny reality...Our enemies will take advantage...
P.S. Yes Ali your HERO was ENLIGHTENED so much that he joined a hate organization, that used him for their own evil purposes, whilst the vast majority of Americans understood what Democracy , though not perfect, represents the majority...
P.S. To call many of my pals who died to protect our laws and way of life
IGNORANT reflects on YOUR IGNORANCE SIR....They who are dead cannot protect themselves, but I can and will...

[frankenfrank]

Originally Posted by burt bienstock

Ali joining a HATE GROUP,and avoiding military services,whilst other young men hating to go, but honoring their duty and served, was NOT an act of personal integrity...Any more than a bank robber , robbing a bank because
he needed money for his family...Not one of us can not claim we avoiding
a duty, could not come up with a rational excuse for our act...Was Clay/Ali
more NOBLE than the vast majority of Americans who despised leaving their jobs and loved one's, but served in the armed forces, because the law
of the land required them to do so, displayed less integrity than a Clay did at that time. ? No. I say...If we don't like the law, we should vote the bums out or face the consequences of our act, otherwise we would have anarchy...My contention is that anyone can say that they displayed "integrity" for whatever act they commit. It is called "rationalization ".
INTEGRITY...

agree with burt . And i do not even support obligatory conscription , but 2 consider Ali's offensive acts outside d ring as altroistic acts , i wonder how he didn't get d Nobel prize 4 piss by now . if u'll ask "Stevie G"/Bokaj he'll tell u Ali deserves it .

[devon]

Originally Posted by burt bienstock

So, let's take YOUR actions for doing what you personally FELT,and refusing to do what the law REQUIRED to the EXTREME...We will have anarchy as anyone would decide what law to obey or disobey...CAN YOU NOT SEE THIS SELFISH behavior can only result in a disolvment of our democracy ? Damn it we are a nation of laws whether you sir, like it or not.
I would love to hear you call my era of servicemen who went through hell and survived, IGNORANT to their faces...You somehow think that because you don't like a law and say "fuck it" , you are smarter or more morally endowed then the VAST majority of brave men who saw their duty dangerous and difficult though it might be, swore an oath to the land they
loved and followed the darn law... That is democracy at work, and I believe as the great Winston Churchill said, "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others ". We cannot today in this small world close our eyes to outside danger, and we cannot put on blindfolds
and deny reality...Our enemies will take advantage...
P.S. Yes Ali your HERO was ENLIGHTENED so much that he joined a hate organization, that used him for their own evil purposes, whilst the vast majority of Americans understood what Democracy , though not perfect, represents the majority...
P.S. To call many of my pals who died to protect our laws and way of life
IGNORANT reflects on YOUR IGNORANCE SIR....They who are dead cannot protect themselves, but I can and will...

Using your reasoning is Rosa Parks at fault because she disobeyed a law because of her personal beliefs. Also how is Islam a hate group.

[kingfisher3]

nation of islam was/is promotes segregation of races, i don't think it has any actual relation to Muhammadian islam.
for me ali deserves respect for publicly changing his views and admitting he was wrong, takes a big man to do that.

[whosthere]

Alexis Arguello. After his boxing career he fought against the Sandanista government in Nicaragua, then later became a politician and was elected mayor of Managua.
He stood up for the oppressed and poor of his country his entire life, and despite the official "suicide" story of the govt, there are credible reports he was murdered for his political stands.

[TonyCamonte]

Originally Posted by burt bienstock

So, let's take YOUR actions for doing what you personally FELT,and refusing to do what the law REQUIRED to the EXTREME...We will have anarchy as anyone would decide what law to obey or disobey...CAN YOU NOT SEE THIS SELFISH behavior can only result in a disolvment of our democracy ? Damn it we are a nation of laws whether you sir, like it or not.
I would love to hear you call my era of servicemen who went through hell and survived, IGNORANT to their faces...You somehow think that because you don't like a law and say "fuck it" , you are smarter or more morally endowed then the VAST majority of brave men who saw their duty dangerous and difficult though it might be, swore an oath to the land they
loved and followed the darn law... That is democracy at work, and I believe as the great Winston Churchill said, "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others ". We cannot today in this small world close our eyes to outside danger, and we cannot put on blindfolds
and deny reality...Our enemies will take advantage...
P.S. Yes Ali your HERO was ENLIGHTENED so much that he joined a hate organization, that used him for their own evil purposes, whilst the vast majority of Americans understood what Democracy , though not perfect, represents the majority...
P.S. To call many of my pals who died to protect our laws and way of life
IGNORANT reflects on YOUR IGNORANCE SIR....They who are dead cannot protect themselves, but I can and will...

I'm sorry Burt, but if we follow your reasoning we might as well eliminate Max Schmeling from this discussion, as he disobeyed the laws of the democratically elected Hitler regime. It would have been his duty to turn over the Jews he hid, using your line of reasoning. "Damn it we are a nation of laws whether you sir, like it or not."
That would also mean none of those who opposed Hitler and the Nazis acted morally, but rather aided the "dissolvement of democracy". Surely you must see that this can be no valid argument!?

[Stevie G]

Originally Posted by Legend X

I don't know, maybe Ali just didn't want to deal with the inconvenience of military service rather than it being a moral imperative first and foremost. It's impossible to know. Only he knows, and that's all that should matter to him if he was genuine - his own conscience.

I do know that he got off lightly compared to most others who refused to be drafted, because he was rich and famous.
I think people lose that sense of perspective. Most men who refused the draft didn't have the lawyers and supporters that were at Ali's disposal, so they had to flee the country or serve years in jail !

Good points,Legend. The alternative way of looking at it,of course,is that some got away with been called to the Draft Board at all.

[Saintpat]

Originally Posted by burt bienstock

Ali joining a HATE GROUP,and avoiding military services,whilst other young men hating to go, but honoring their duty and served, was NOT an act of personal integrity...Any more than a bank robber , robbing a bank because
he needed money for his family...Not one of us can not claim we avoiding
a duty, could not come up with a rational excuse for our act...Was Clay/Ali
more NOBLE than the vast majority of Americans who despised leaving their jobs and loved one's, but served in the armed forces, because the law
of the land required them to do so, displayed less integrity than a Clay did at that time. ? No. I say...If we don't like the law, we should vote the bums out or face the consequences of our act, otherwise we would have anarchy...My contention is that anyone can say that they displayed "integrity" for whatever act they commit. It is called "rationalization ".
INTEGRITY...

Call it what you will, Burt, but a rose by any other name would smell the same.

I look forward with great anticipation to your response to the Rosa Parks question -- should the Civil Rights movement have never happened? Were Martin Luther King Jr. and Gandi "rationalizing" in standing up for basic human rights in their respective situations? Should they have done their duty and stood down since the law -- as practiced -- did not allow for civil disobedience?

Here's the thing, and in the final analysis there is no getting around it, Ali stood up for what he believed was right. I've never seen anything to indicate that he was acting out of hate instilled by what you call a hate group. He refused induction and was willing to take whatever punishment the government was willing to hand out -- but he did so in a LEGAL manner. He CHALLENGED the law in court and WON the right to earn a living. That is what agents of change do, and to do so is courageous in light of the personal sacrifice he made in giving up what turned out to have been 3 years of his prime, but could have meant giving up his freedom in the long term.

This ain't Nazi Germany. Ali didn't live in Sadaam Hussein's Iraq. He lived, as do you and I, in the home of the FREE and the land of the BRAVE. We are a nation of laws, not men, and Ali challenged the system from within. He didn't run for the border and dodge the draft, he stood up as a conscientious objector and said do with me what you will, but I have no quarrel with the Viet Cong and will not be part of this conflict.

Ali was denied conscientious objector status without explanation, and against the recommendation that such status be granted by the hearing officer after considering all evidence gathered by the FBI and presented at the hearing to decide his status. The Justice Department, in a political move that the Supreme Court ruled unanimously was without merit, ignored this recommendation and all supporting evidence and recommended Ali's petition for conscientious objector status be denied.

So the law, in this case, was unjustly applied. The Supreme Court said so, emphatically. Yet you say Ali should never have challenged this, because it was the law.

All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing, Edmond Burke told us, and it's true. Some choose to trudge along, heads down, and go along with laws that are evil. Laws like slavery, laws like Jim Crowe, laws like taxation without representation. Others choose to challenge.

Consider this, good man: If our forefathers had taken your lead, there would be no America. Tea parties weren't legal under the British law of the 1700s. You want to rub young Cassius Clay on the head and tell him to be a good 'boy' and go pick his cotton. Send Rosa to the back of the bus because that was the law in Montgomery Alabama. That's your point of view and you live in a country where you have a right to believe that and espouse that belief. But our constitution allows people to challenge the law, and that's what Ali did.

[PowerPuncher]

Originally Posted by burt bienstock

So, let's take YOUR actions for doing what you personally FELT,and refusing to do what the law REQUIRED to the EXTREME...We will have anarchy as anyone would decide what law to obey or disobey...CAN YOU NOT SEE THIS SELFISH behavior can only result in a disolvment of our democracy ? Damn it we are a nation of laws whether you sir, like it or not.
I would love to hear you call my era of servicemen who went through hell and survived, IGNORANT to their faces...You somehow think that because you don't like a law and say "fuck it" , you are smarter or more morally endowed then the VAST majority of brave men who saw their duty dangerous and difficult though it might be, swore an oath to the land they
loved and followed the darn law... That is democracy at work, and I believe as the great Winston Churchill said, "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others ". We cannot today in this small world close our eyes to outside danger, and we cannot put on blindfolds
and deny reality...Our enemies will take advantage...
P.S. Yes Ali your HERO was ENLIGHTENED so much that he joined a hate organization, that used him for their own evil purposes, whilst the vast majority of Americans understood what Democracy , though not perfect, represents the majority...
P.S. To call many of my pals who died to protect our laws and way of life
IGNORANT reflects on YOUR IGNORANCE SIR....They who are dead cannot protect themselves, but I can and will...

Burt you can say Ali joined a hate group, but many would counter with the US Government and white society as a whole were a hate group towards blacks at the time. The lack of civil rights and discrimination many saw as an oppression. The Nation or Islam, despite it's many flaws is in essence is a counter to this

Many civil rights activists at the time were conscripted despite not being in the age bracket to silence them.

[burt bienstock]

Originally Posted by TonyCamonte

I'm sorry Burt, but if we follow your reasoning we might as well eliminate Max Schmeling from this discussion, as he disobeyed the laws of the democratically elected Hitler regime. It would have been his duty to turn over the Jews he hid, using your line of reasoning. "Damn it we are a nation of laws whether you sir, like it or not."
That would also mean none of those who opposed Hitler and the Nazis acted morally, but rather aided the "dissolvement of democracy". Surely you must see that this can be no valid argument!?

Sir, look up your history...Max Schmeling DID serve in the German Paratroops...Don't distort history...