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Old 05-22-2012, 08:16 AM   #31
TonyCamonte
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Default Re: Who was the best? Examples of boxers displaying personal integrity / moral courag

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Originally Posted by burt bienstock View Post
Sir, look up your history...Max Schmeling DID serve in the German Paratroops...Don't distort history...
I never said he didn't. The heart of the analogy was not serving in the military, but rather not obeying laws of the existing system.
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Old 05-22-2012, 08:21 AM   #32
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Did you just call islam a hate group
Also Ali didn't join the army because of his religious beliefs. Also his family already had enough money. The fact is Ali stood up for something he believed in if that isn't integrity then i don't know what is.
Devon, don't be disengenuous, and put freakin lies in my post...Did I call ISLAM a hate group ? Did I. ? You are a scoundrel by trying to make your point by putting words in my mouth...You know very well I meant the Black Muslim hate group, and not the religion of Islam...
P.S. The people who bombed the World Trade Center and killed 3000 innocent souls, BELIEVED in their cause...Is that not your version of "integrity" ?.
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Old 05-22-2012, 08:32 AM   #33
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Default Re: Who was the best? Examples of boxers displaying personal integrity / moral courag

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Originally Posted by burt bienstock View Post
Devon, don't be disengenuous, and put freakin lies in my post...Did I call ISLAM a hate group ? Did I. ? You are a scoundrel by trying to make your point by putting words in my mouth...You know very well I meant the Black Muslim hate group, and not the religion of Islam...
P.S. The people who bombed the World Trade Center and killed 3000 innocent souls, BELIEVED in their cause...Is that not your version of "integrity" ?.
oh sorry i actually thought thats what you meant
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Old 05-22-2012, 08:35 AM   #34
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Default Re: Who was the best? Examples of boxers displaying personal integrity / moral courag

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I never said he didn't. The heart of the analogy was not serving in the military, but rather not obeying laws of the existing system.
Tony, so if I don't like paying taxes, don't like paying for auto insurance, wish not to be searched at the airport, don't wish to wear clothes on a hot day, and hundreds of other laws in a society, I can defy the "existing "
system as you put it ? Tony, how long would this country exist ? Think man and remember their are millions of your citizens who THINK opposite you...
How long can a society exist if everyone obeyed the laws that they personally liked ? You Tony, know the answer...Cheers...
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Old 05-22-2012, 08:52 AM   #35
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Default Re: Who was the best? Examples of boxers displaying personal integrity / moral courag

Max Baer despite having a bit of rep was extremely charitable and had alot of integrity giving alot of time and money into dozens of childrens programs around the country. Friends of Baer said when driving around the city if he saw a homeless person he'd demand the car be halted, would walk out and give the homeless person a wad of cash.

But i agree with most Schmeling is the greatest example you can find for those with integrity and moral courage, he risked his life numerous times, gave up money numerous times for others.
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Old 05-22-2012, 08:54 AM   #36
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Schmeling takes the title then. How ironic, he must have been the second most hated man in the US after beating Louis and with WW2 coming along
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Old 05-22-2012, 08:55 AM   #37
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Default Re: Who was the best? Examples of boxers displaying personal integrity / moral courag

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Originally Posted by burt bienstock View Post
Tony, so if I don't like paying taxes, don't like paying for auto insurance, wish not to be searched at the airport, don't wish to wear clothes on a hot day, and hundreds of other laws in a society, I can defy the "existing "
system as you put it ? Tony, how long would this country exist ? Think man and remember their are millions of your citizens who THINK opposite you...
How long can a society exist if everyone obeyed the laws that they personally liked ? You Tony, know the answer...Cheers...
S the are you against shmeling . Because he defied the law
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Old 05-22-2012, 08:55 AM   #38
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Default Re: Who was the best? Examples of boxers displaying personal integrity / moral courag

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So, let's take YOUR actions for doing what you personally FELT,and refusing to do what the law REQUIRED to the EXTREME...We will have anarchy as anyone would decide what law to obey or disobey...CAN YOU NOT SEE THIS SELFISH behavior can only result in a disolvment of our democracy ? Damn it we are a nation of laws whether you sir, like it or not.
I would love to hear you call my era of servicemen who went through hell and survived, IGNORANT to their faces...You somehow think that because you don't like a law and say "**** it" , you are smarter or more morally endowed then the VAST majority of brave men who saw their duty dangerous and difficult though it might be, swore an oath to the land they
loved and followed the darn law... That is democracy at work, and I believe as the great Winston Churchill said, "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others ". We cannot today in this small world close our eyes to outside danger, and we cannot put on blindfolds
and deny reality...Our enemies will take advantage...
P.S. Yes Ali your HERO was ENLIGHTENED so much that he joined a hate organization, that used him for their own evil purposes, whilst the vast majority of Americans understood what Democracy , though not perfect, represents the majority...
P.S. To call many of my pals who died to protect our laws and way of life
IGNORANT reflects on YOUR IGNORANCE SIR....They who are dead cannot protect themselves, but I can and will...
Burt . How do you feel about a former American President dodging the draft?
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Old 05-22-2012, 08:58 AM   #39
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Default Re: Who was the best? Examples of boxers displaying personal integrity / moral courag

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There are countless fighters in the sports history who have displayed time and again gigante cahones by showing thier PHYSICAL courage, bravery and valor - thier willingness to risk and sacrifice thier personal health when stepping into the squared circle. In fact, without these qualities its impossible to have authentic success in boxing or any fighting sport.

However this thread is about a different form of courage - the type displayed away from the ring, the type needed to stand up for principles and ideals. In this case about anecdotes/boxers in recent or ancient history, who they were and what they did to stand up for personal convictions or objective moral values.

I will start with the ultimate example and the most famous and also a bit of a cop-out with an example that everyone on this forum and thier mother's know about, that is Muhammad Ali deciding that the value of a successful boxing career, financial success, and fame were not nearly as valuable as choosing to stand up for what he thought at the time the religious group he ascribed to, and more overall what he viewed as a personal attack on his religious principles and ideals.

Everyone now knows that the group was an extremist group which as a whole practiced questionable morals itself (didn't I read somewhere elijah muhammad impregnating multiple preteens?), but i think you would be hardpressed to find anyone who believed Ali participated/knew/would have gotten involved with this group if he knew of the dishonest manipulation tactics in the leadership.

This is probably the example with the most notoriety in the sport, and one that exemplifies the qualities discussed. But this discussion doesn't have to be about famous or well-known actions. The fact that boxing was involved in that situation is not the point, just that it happened to be a boxer who made a decision displaying personal integrity.


With that start, what/who are some other examples?
This may be a controversial statement, but my pick is.


JACK JOHNSON
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Old 05-22-2012, 08:59 AM   #40
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Default Re: Who was the best? Examples of boxers displaying personal integrity / moral courag

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Burt . How do you feel about a former American President dodging the draft?
I'm guessing he voted for him
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Old 05-22-2012, 09:11 AM   #41
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Default Re: Who was the best? Examples of boxers displaying personal integrity / moral courag

The difference between Schmeling defying the law and Ali dodging the draft is that Schmeling did so to rescue life and in opposition to an immoral, ethic-less and criminal regime. Ali dodged the draft to not go to war. It was not a civil rights issue. If he would have gone to prison for sitting on the back of the bus or because only blacks would have been drafted than yes, he would have a case. However that was not the case. He still stood up for what he believed in and suffered for it, so he still should be considered for honourable mentions.

Anyway, my Top5 would look like this, in order of "appearance":
Jack Johnson
Johann Trollmann - he might be my number one choice. He died in a concentration camp for his courage.
Barney Ross
Max Schmeling
Joe Louis
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Old 05-22-2012, 09:13 AM   #42
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Default Re: Who was the best? Examples of boxers displaying personal integrity / moral courag

Michael Watson for the way he has carried himself throughout, during and after his career.
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Old 05-22-2012, 09:14 AM   #43
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Default Re: Who was the best? Examples of boxers displaying personal integrity / moral courag

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The difference between Schmeling defying the law and Ali dodging the draft is that Schmeling did so to rescue life and in opposition to an immoral, ethic-less and criminal regime. Ali dodged the draft to not go to war. It was not a civil rights issue. If he would have gone to prison for sitting on the back of the bus or because only blacks would have been drafted than yes, he would have a case. However that was not the case.
Burt's point is that defying any law is bad.

Last edited by devon; 05-22-2012 at 09:25 AM.
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Old 05-22-2012, 09:16 AM   #44
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Default Re: Who was the best? Examples of boxers displaying personal integrity / moral courag

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Mcvey's point is that defying any law is bad.
I disagree, the context, which law it is and the reasoning behind defying has to be taken into consideration.
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Old 05-22-2012, 09:19 AM   #45
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OMG. Anyone making a case for Ali being on this thread is dilusional!
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