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Old 05-22-2012, 09:21 AM   #46
mcvey
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Default Re: Who was the best? Examples of boxers displaying personal integrity / moral courag

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Tony, so if I don't like paying taxes, don't like paying for auto insurance, wish not to be searched at the airport, don't wish to wear clothes on a hot day, and hundreds of other laws in a society, I can defy the "existing "
system as you put it ? Tony, how long would this country exist ? Think man and remember their are millions of your citizens who THINK opposite you...
How long can a society exist if everyone obeyed the laws that they personally liked ? You Tony, know the answer...Cheers...
People died in concentration camps because they disobeyed laws they abhorred , were they wrong?
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Old 05-22-2012, 09:30 AM   #47
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This is going to get really messy...
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Old 05-22-2012, 09:37 AM   #48
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The difference between Schmeling defying the law and Ali dodging the draft is that Schmeling did so to rescue life and in opposition to an immoral, ethic-less and criminal regime. Ali dodged the draft to not go to war. It was not a civil rights issue. If he would have gone to prison for sitting on the back of the bus or because only blacks would have been drafted than yes, he would have a case. However that was not the case. He still stood up for what he believed in and suffered for it, so he still should be considered for honourable mentions.

Anyway, my Top5 would look like this, in order of "appearance":
Jack Johnson
Johann Trollmann - he might be my number one choice. He died in a concentration camp for his courage.
Barney Ross

Max Schmeling
Joe Louis
Care to elaborate on their stories?
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Old 05-22-2012, 09:58 AM   #49
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People died in concentration camps because they disobeyed laws they abhorred , were they wrong?
McVey...Why are you using such an abomination comparing innocent people
being incinerated in a furnace ,with serving your country as millions of other citizens have for generations ? i am not a debater, just a man who along with MILLIONS of Americans had to leave my beloved family and job
and obey the law...How can you who I respect as a knowledgeable boxing poster use such an anology ? Whether you like it or not , the USA has by and large carried the brunt of responsibility trying hard to preserve some semblance of freedom in this world..What would happen to Britain if citizens of WW2 ,refused to bear arms and seve their country...? They did it because this is how democracy works...You obey the law or you face
anarchy..Cannot you see this Mc ? A democracy cannot exist without laws, and my generation was called " the greatest" for a reason...My hero was Winston Churchill , who as someone said "mobilized the English language
and sent it in to battle ". What was good enough for Sir Winston trumps
the misguided ESB posters of today, and I fervently believe so...
Now back to boxing...Cheers...
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Old 05-22-2012, 10:09 AM   #50
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The story about Liston and the midget scottish hooker in Mickey Duff's book.
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Old 05-22-2012, 10:23 AM   #51
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So, let's take YOUR actions for doing what you personally FELT,and refusing to do what the law REQUIRED to the EXTREME...We will have anarchy as anyone would decide what law to obey or disobey...CAN YOU NOT SEE THIS SELFISH behavior can only result in a disolvment of our democracy ? Damn it we are a nation of laws whether you sir, like it or not.
I would love to hear you call my era of servicemen who went through hell and survived, IGNORANT to their faces...You somehow think that because you don't like a law and say "**** it" , you are smarter or more morally endowed then the VAST majority of brave men who saw their duty dangerous and difficult though it might be, swore an oath to the land they
loved and followed the darn law... That is democracy at work, and I believe as the great Winston Churchill said, "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others ". We cannot today in this small world close our eyes to outside danger, and we cannot put on blindfolds
and deny reality...Our enemies will take advantage...
P.S. Yes Ali your HERO was ENLIGHTENED so much that he joined a hate organization, that used him for their own evil purposes, whilst the vast majority of Americans understood what Democracy , though not perfect, represents the majority...
P.S. To call many of my pals who died to protect our laws and way of life
IGNORANT reflects on YOUR IGNORANCE SIR....They who are dead cannot protect themselves, but I can and will...
How American of you to assume you and I live in the same country.

I don't care if you've been around the block or not, you're talking shite. Ali, my hero? Ha... Well that boat ain't going to float.

Surely by now you must see that life is not black and white - and that you shouldn't ask 'how high' when they ask you to jump. Laws in my country don't allow me to possess a weapon and shoot a man upon illegal entry to my property. Some (most?) states in your country allow this. If I bought a weapon in anticipation and then used it for home defence I would likely get torn a new one by the law. If you shot a man you could very well get off without much being said. We are both just people. Who's right and who's wrong?

Would you sign up for the war in Afghanistan, one that most people regard as a total **** up by our governments? Me neither. And if they told me I was going I still wouldn't go.

Anyway, we're talking about the Vietnamese war here which was hardly an invasion. I wouldn't fight for the government's interests, and that's what you'd be fighting for, not your own interests. Most people are aware that soldiers get treated like shit.
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Old 05-22-2012, 10:46 AM   #52
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How American of you to assume you and I live in the same country.

I don't care if you've been around the block or not, you're talking shite. Ali, my hero? Ha... Well that boat ain't going to float.

Surely by now you must see that life is not black and white - and that you shouldn't ask 'how high' when they ask you to jump. Laws in my country don't allow me to possess a weapon and shoot a man upon illegal entry to my property. Some (most?) states in your country allow this. If I bought a weapon in anticipation and then used it for home defence I would likely get torn a new one by the law. If you shot a man you could very well get off without much being said. We are both just people. Who's right and who's wrong?

Would you sign up for the war in Afghanistan, one that most people regard as a total **** up by our governments? Me neither. And if they told me I was going I still wouldn't go.

Anyway, we're talking about the Vietnamese war here which was hardly an invasion. I wouldn't fight for the government's interests, and that's what you'd be fighting for, not your own interests. Most people are aware that soldiers get treated like shit.
Manassa, I could care less where you live, "a rose by any other name will smell as sweet ". You don't like the war in Afghanistan ? NEITHER do I...
I don't like to pay my darn taxes ,but I do...I don't like to be body searched at the airport, but I bear the inconvenience...In a nation of 300 MILLION, we have to obey the law,[ unless only certain races are singled out ], or
a country cannot long survive...I hate war,cause i lost many acquaintences
but the mature and responsible way is to vote, so the laws can be changed...
Remember M, there are Millions who think opposite of you...What about their rights ?. Clay? Ali was not anymore intelligent than the VAST majority of citizens ,who left their homes and loved one's ,and did the right things...
He was no damn hero...That's for sure !
P.S. In WW2 there was a famous actor, Lew Ayres, who became a conscientuous objector and refused to fight, but VOLUNTEERED as an Ambulance Driver, and was in the midst of battle, saving many wounded
men on the battlefield...Now there was a man of "integrity"...
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Old 05-22-2012, 10:53 AM   #53
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Default Re: Who was the best? Examples of boxers displaying personal integrity / moral courag

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Care to elaborate on their stories?
On Trollmann: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Ross, look at his life after his boxing career.
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Old 05-22-2012, 11:02 AM   #54
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Default Re: Who was the best? Examples of boxers displaying personal integrity / moral courag

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Originally Posted by burt bienstock View Post
McVey...Why are you using such an abomination comparing innocent people
being incinerated in a furnace ,with serving your country as millions of other citizens have for generations ? i am not a debater, just a man who along with MILLIONS of Americans had to leave my beloved family and job
and obey the law...How can you who I respect as a knowledgeable boxing poster use such an anology ? Whether you like it or not , the USA has by and large carried the brunt of responsibility trying hard to preserve some semblance of freedom in this world..What would happen to Britain if citizens of WW2 ,refused to bear arms and seve their country...? They did it because this is how democracy works...You obey the law or you face
anarchy..Cannot you see this Mc ? A democracy cannot exist without laws, and my generation was called " the greatest" for a reason...My hero was Winston Churchill , who as someone said "mobilized the English language
and sent it in to battle ". What was good enough for Sir Winston trumps
the misguided ESB posters of today, and I fervently believe so...
Now back to boxing...Cheers...
Difference being we went to war to honour an agreement to defend Poland if it was invaded. You went to war because you WERE attacked.
The US has a long history of supporting democracy, just as long as its their kind of democracy. Chile is just one example.

In my lifetime, and yours.
You had witch hunts in your country ,tacitly presided over by your government, were those who refused to name names in those appalling hearings wrong?

I don't call Ali a draft dodger, because he stood up and said I won't enlist, unlike a President of the US who dissapeared. Ali was willing to take the consequences of his action on the chin, whether you think he was right or wrong is immaterial, he sacrificed his prime years for something that HE believed in, with no certainty that he would not go to prison for it.

Ali was told he would be a morale booster as Louis was before him, he would not have seen action, he could have taken the easy route and complied , but he didn't. I for one ,respect him for that.

Winston Churchill is one one my country's greatest men , but he wasn't infallible.


There are a hell of a lot of people who now think the US should never have gone into Viet Nam.

I respect those who served ,and also those who said ,I think this is an unjust war , we have no business being in, and I won't take part in it. Consequently going to prison for their stand. I dont respect those who ****ed off to Canada or elsewhere . My point is, laws are not inviolable, there are good laws ,and bad ones,and the bad ones need to be challenged to change them. Otherwise we have the masses blindly obeying laws, and leaders ,that are just plain wrong as they did in Germany , that's why I used that analogy.
MY COUNTRY RIGHT OR WRONG DOESN'T GO WITH ME.
IT'S MY CONSCIENCE RIGHT OR WRONG

Back to boxing
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Old 05-22-2012, 11:14 AM   #55
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Default Re: Who was the best? Examples of boxers displaying personal integrity / moral courag

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
This may be a controversial statement, but my pick is.


JACK JOHNSON
Quote:
Originally Posted by bodhi View Post
The difference between Schmeling defying the law and Ali dodging the draft is that Schmeling did so to rescue life and in opposition to an immoral, ethic-less and criminal regime. Ali dodged the draft to not go to war. It was not a civil rights issue. If he would have gone to prison for sitting on the back of the bus or because only blacks would have been drafted than yes, he would have a case. However that was not the case. He still stood up for what he believed in and suffered for it, so he still should be considered for honourable mentions.

Anyway, my Top5 would look like this, in order of "appearance":
Jack Johnson
Johann Trollmann - he might be my number one choice. He died in a concentration camp for his courage.
Barney Ross
Max Schmeling
Joe Louis
I think it is controversial.......but he has definitely a lot of courage to do what he did in his era, I got it......
Emanuel Steward would strongly disagree with you two though, at least from what I remember from one of his interviews where he critized the man of Jack Johnson and blamed him for many things.....
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Old 05-22-2012, 11:31 AM   #56
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Default Re: Who was the best? Examples of boxers displaying personal integrity / moral courag

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Originally Posted by burt bienstock View Post
Manassa, I could care less where you live, "a rose by any other name will smell as sweet ". You don't like the war in Afghanistan ? NEITHER do I...
I don't like to pay my darn taxes ,but I do...I don't like to be body searched at the airport, but I bear the inconvenience...In a nation of 300 MILLION, we have to obey the law,[ unless only certain races are singled out ], or
a country cannot long survive...I hate war,cause i lost many acquaintences
but the mature and responsible way is to vote, so the laws can be changed...
Remember M, there are Millions who think opposite of you...What about their rights ?. Clay? Ali was not anymore intelligent than the VAST majority of citizens ,who left their homes and loved one's ,and did the right things...
He was no damn hero...That's for sure !
P.S. In WW2 there was a famous actor, Lew Ayres, who became a conscientuous objector and refused to fight, but VOLUNTEERED as an Ambulance Driver, and was in the midst of battle, saving many wounded
men on the battlefield...Now there was a man of "integrity"...
You hate war? Good, I think we all do. But you'd still go along anyway.
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Old 05-22-2012, 11:36 AM   #57
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burt's the kind of man who would gleefully stoke the ovens.
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Old 05-22-2012, 11:45 AM   #58
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agree with burt . And i do not even support obligatory conscription , but 2 consider Ali's offensive acts outside d ring as altroistic acts , i wonder how he didn't get d Nobel prize 4 piss by now . if u'll ask "Stevie G"/Bokaj he'll tell u Ali deserves it .

Thanks for the namecheck,Frankie


Actually,my views on Muhammad and the Draft issue are n't as cut and dried as you'd like to think. It's a very grey issue as far as I'm concerned. It's not a simple matter of him being brave for not going or NOT brave for actually going along with it. I see the situation as follows - Ali was under pressure from two sides. On one hand the government was pushing him to go. On the other,the Nation of Islam were pushing him not to.

My own theory is that Muhammad felt himself on a precipice and was n't initially sure which way to jump. The NOI had their way,as we all know. If he'd bucked the NOI he'd have deserved as much credit for doing so as he did for the decision he made.

The Vietnam war has been debated on previous threads on here. Just for the record,I consider it a total mess which would have burnt itself out comparatively quickly had North and South been left to it. 'Uncle Sam' had no REAL need to poke it's nose in.
I do appreciate that the Armed Forces are n't allowed the luxury of picking which wars are justified and which are not.

Last edited by Stevie G; 05-22-2012 at 12:21 PM.
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Old 05-22-2012, 12:12 PM   #59
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This may be a controversial statement, but my pick is.


JACK JOHNSON

I go along with that. The shit that Jack and other black fighters had to take in those days was a bloody disgrace.
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Old 05-22-2012, 12:20 PM   #60
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burt's the kind of man who would gleefully stoke the ovens.
Only if YOU were in it lora...
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