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Old 01-14-2008, 08:01 AM   #46
ChrisPontius
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Default Re: Floyd Patterson v. Buster Douglas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonny's jab
Skills are something you learn and practice.
And of course the greatest champions in all sports are often among the men who practiced most and were taught best.

Of course talent plays a part. My point is - how can you tell where talent ends and product of training and practice begins ?

What does "talent" even mean ? You think Buster Douglas just came out of the womb throwing jabs and hooks ?
They all learned this stuff in gyms, with trainers, and who knows how much work was put in.
Douglas didn't come out of the womb throwing those double jabs no.

A lot of talent means that you can do more when you've reach your maximum development after a lot of training. For instance, watch Timo Hoffman, the modern Willard. He's a big guy who got by on his strength and size. He trains very hard but lacks the talent to really get to a high level, boxing-skill wise. But watch for instance Golota in this video:

At 2:47, Bowe throws a double left hook followed by a 1-2 and some punches, Golota blocks most of them, then from nowhere he lands a snappy, fast right hand-left hook. Or at 5:42, Golota lands a hard left hook, dodges two punches and lands a 1-2-lefthook.


BORKED



Or in this one, at 1:24, Golota lands a great 3 punch combination flush and Bowe doesn't know what's happening to him. Most big guys can train their entire life and will never be able to throw, time and land a combination as Golota did there (slow motion of it at 3:44). Or first instance at 2:17, Golota landing a combination while avoiding Bowe's punches in an exchange, rocking him. There are several more examples but you get the point.

BORKED


Why can Wladimir Klitschko put his jab, combinations and moving around the ring together much better than his brother Vitali who has trained as least as much as he did? Simple: Wladimir has more talent.
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Old 01-14-2008, 08:19 AM   #47
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Default Re: Floyd Patterson v. Buster Douglas

OK Chris P,
I'm not actually disputing any of that. (although I would never discourage any fighter from trying to develop those exact skills because he "seems" to lack the natural talent)

The point is, some of the guys who lack the aptitude to do all those things actually make up for it in other ways and are even more effective fighters than the ones who do it. They have their own "talent".
Some guys just never needed to box like that because they were beating everyone in their own crude unorthodox method.
It's not all about fluidity and textbook skills.

For many of the great fighters, I think an Oscar Bonavena would be harder to beat than a Buster Douglas, just as Vitali is arguably a tougher proposition for many than his "more talented" brother Wlad.
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Old 01-14-2008, 08:27 AM   #48
ChrisPontius
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Default Re: Floyd Patterson v. Buster Douglas

Of course, that is true. Golota, for all his talent, officially never really beat a top ranked heavyweight.

I agree with your general assertion, but i think a peak Douglas is a harder pill to swallow than Bonavena.
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Old 03-28-2015, 01:27 AM   #49
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Default Re: Floyd Patterson v. Buster Douglas

Nuff said; debate over. Kills me how so many serious boxing fans bend over backwards to romanticize so many of the smaller, weaker, less skilled "heavyweights" (really cruiser- and light-heavyweights) of yesteryear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius View Post
By stoppage. Putting an athletically talented 6'4 230lbs man who knows his footwork, speed, combinations, every punch in with a 5'11 180lbs weak chinned heavyweight without a big punch who comes forward is a big mismatch.
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Old 03-28-2015, 11:30 AM   #50
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Default Re: Floyd Patterson v. Buster Douglas

Tokyo Douglas = GOAT

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Old 03-28-2015, 11:46 AM   #51
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Default Re: Floyd Patterson v. Buster Douglas

Douglas was kind of like ellis and Patterson was kind of like Tyson.
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Old 03-30-2015, 11:56 AM   #52
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Default Re: Floyd Patterson v. Buster Douglas

The Buster Douglas of the Mike Tyson fight was a great heavyweight that
night who would have beaten the smaller Floyd Patterson, much as I admired Floyd as a MAN. Buster that bygone night was flirting on greatness, but couldn't sustain this peak. Shame, as he was a decent chap...
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Old 03-30-2015, 12:07 PM   #53
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Default Re: Floyd Patterson v. Buster Douglas

Yeah as much as I like Floyd, I wouldn't pick him to beat too many top heavys in the modern era. He had the skills and the heart but just not enough of the physical tools.
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Old 03-30-2015, 12:37 PM   #54
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Default Re: Floyd Patterson v. Buster Douglas

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius View Post
By stoppage. Putting an athletically talented 6'4 230lbs man who knows his footwork, speed, combinations, every punch in with a 5'11 180lbs weak chinned heavyweight without a big punch who comes forward is a big mismatch.
Je hebt het wel over een boks legende hoor!
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Old 03-30-2015, 01:29 PM   #55
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Default Re: Floyd Patterson v. Buster Douglas

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius View Post
By stoppage. Putting an athletically talented 6'4 230lbs man who knows his footwork, speed, combinations, every punch in with a 5'11 180lbs weak chinned heavyweight without a big punch who comes forward is a big mismatch.
Jeez Not to mention eras (again!) Floyd was 182 when he fought Archie Moore and was never that light the rest of his career! He was a 188-192 guy his entire HW career. "Without a big punch?"
Adjusting for eras the weight difference wouldn't have been as great.
Buster's crowning achievment was the Tyson fight, he laid an egg in almost every other big match he was in.
Floyd was always ready to fight. Ingo's right hand was more powerful than Douglas's.
Sonny was world's better than Douglas.
Next thread please...
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Old 03-30-2015, 08:51 PM   #56
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Default Re: Floyd Patterson v. Buster Douglas

James Douglas was so powerful especially when he couldn't knock
the about 206 pounds for 6'6" glass-chinned Jaco.
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Old 03-31-2015, 01:22 AM   #57
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Default Re: Floyd Patterson v. Buster Douglas

Floyd was much better over a career. But peak Douglas was very good 7 the size means a fair amount.

Also you cannot fairly credit Patterson with what weight & muscle he MIGHT have had. For one, he could lose some of his superior speed.
He would still have a much smaller frame, reach, etc...

Mainly, the question is how would they do AS IS if reincarnated.

He did have a very good punch, likely more due to speed & not expected rather than pure measurable force. Kind of the opposite case of a Foreman, who could crush you regardless of seeing everything coming or im[erfect blows.

If Douglas was excellent in Tokyo-& very good in a few fights earlier-
i think a good 40 lbs. a much greater wongspan & height & very good skills would carry the day, absent very extenuating stylistic circumstances.

Which could include something like Braddock finding the Lewis flaw & fighting masterfully. It could happen, but I see no reason to believe patterson would find something similar with PEAK Douglas.
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Old 03-31-2015, 02:12 AM   #58
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Default Re: Floyd Patterson v. Buster Douglas

I know it's a free country, but do we have to do the 190 lb. guy vs 240 lb. guy every week?

Two words:

PHYSICS MATTERS.

Basically it's like asking if Guillermo Rigondeaux could be a limited middleweight such as Daniel Gaele.

Sure he could, one time out of ten he avoids him for 12 rounds, the other times, Gaele backs him into the ropes and pounds on his ribs until he falls down.

(and let me stop you, yes, I know about Burley and JD Turner.)
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Old 03-31-2015, 06:58 AM   #59
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Default Re: Floyd Patterson v. Buster Douglas

Quote:
Originally Posted by jowcol View Post
Jeez Not to mention eras (again!) Floyd was 182 when he fought Archie Moore and was never that light the rest of his career! He was a 188-192 guy his entire HW career. "Without a big punch?"
Adjusting for eras the weight difference wouldn't have been as great.
Buster's crowning achievment was the Tyson fight, he laid an egg in almost every other big match he was in.
Floyd was always ready to fight. Ingo's right hand was more powerful than Douglas's.
Sonny was world's better than Douglas.
Next thread please...
Hi, again, Jowcol! I recently posted about Patterson's power after seeing him rock Chuvalo and Quarry with single shots. He also starched Cooper; something Ali could never do. I think Patterson is really underrated by many due to the Liston defeats.

Douglas was a one hit wonder like his relative Carl!
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Old 03-31-2015, 03:40 PM   #60
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Default Re: Floyd Patterson v. Buster Douglas

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Originally Posted by ribtickler68 View Post
Hi, again, Jowcol! I recently posted about Patterson's power after seeing him rock Chuvalo and Quarry with single shots. He also starched Cooper; something Ali could never do. I think Patterson is really underrated by many due to the Liston defeats.
Douglas was a one hit wonder like his relative Carl!
Hey 'ribtick'
Everyone know's I'm the Floyd 'nuthugger'! In all of his fights he was his OWN worst enemy, not his opponent. Given his demeanor, we never saw those blazing combos with any regularity.
Consider:
Had he beaten (as a teenager) Maxim, who most sportwriters at ringside said he did, you've got a win and not a loss.
How about a 3-0 against Quarry-Quarry-Ellis? (I know, Frazier would have loomed on the sidelines)
Ingo? He got tagged with a Sunday Bingo and still got up 7 times and...almost killed him in the rematch and KO's him in the third (his two INGO KD's in the 1st, again, were probably due to his passivity.) 2 Ali losses, 2 Liston losses. Take those away and your looking at a 59-1!!!i In his final fight, he was giving Ali a fine s**** (almost 38!) That eye swell was the result of Charlie Green's brutal head butt in his first comeback fight in Sept. 70 which put some permanent damage to Floyd's eye.
I cried when my bud texted me telling me Floyd had passed away. My childhood hero along with Micky Mantle, Jim Brown, Oscar Robertson, Emile Griffith, etc...
Blessings!
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