After watching Foreman-Morrison and Foreman-Stewart......

[ironchamp]

Originally Posted by luke

tyson had to much self doubt to beat foreman, and secondly a 40 year old grandad wouldnt be scared of tysons bs mind games, athleticly tyson would steam roll him, but its not just an athletic thing.

Too much self doubt?

I thought pre-prison he was insanely confident. Tyson never needed to win fights with mind games, Ali did that. Self doubt didn't come until after Holyfield.

Too much emphasis is being put on Foreman's performance against Holyfield.

I never understood the logic. Some posters believe:

Prime Holmes is all wrong for Mike Tyson.
Prime Foreman is all wrong for Mike Tyson.

But here is where it gets interesting:

George Foreman earns his title shot via his own popularity and by stopping Adilson Rodrigues in 2 rounds. Rodrigues was fresh of a KO2 loss from Holyfield two fights earlier.

Meanwhile; Holmes earns his title shot by shutting out an undefeated Ray Mercer coming off a career best win over Tommy Morrison.

Foreman goes the distance against Holyfield and gives a competitive bout.
Official Scores were: 116-111, 117-110, 115-112

Holmes goes the distance with Holyfield and gives a competitive bout.
Official Score were: 116-112, 116-112, 117-111

Tyson 4 years earlier against better version of Holmes brutally stops him in 4 rounds.

Yet somehow a Foreman who ends up turning down 4 separate offers from Mike Tyson's camp is supposed to have beaten him?

If Tyson had brutally stopped Foreman in 4 rounds instead of Holmes, would people claim that Holmes would have upset Tyson?

There is either an anti-Tyson agenda or equally likely there is the notion that somehow punchers are more dangerous than boxers, either way it's flawed.

[JudgeDredd]

Originally Posted by luke

tyson had to much self doubt to beat foreman, and secondly a 40 year old grandad wouldnt be scared of tysons bs mind games, athleticly tyson would steam roll him, but its not just an athletic thing.

The only doubts pre prison Tyson had was which strip club to attend.

[Sangria]

Originally Posted by ironchamp

Too much self doubt?

I thought pre-prison he was insanely confident. Tyson never needed to win fights with mind games, Ali did that. Self doubt didn't come until after Holyfield.

Too much emphasis is being put on Foreman's performance against Holyfield.

I never understood the logic. Some posters believe:

Prime Holmes is all wrong for Mike Tyson.
Prime Foreman is all wrong for Mike Tyson.

But here is where it gets interesting:

George Foreman earns his title shot via his own popularity and by stopping Adilson Rodrigues in 2 rounds. Rodrigues was fresh of a KO2 loss from Holyfield two fights earlier.

Meanwhile; Holmes earns his title shot by shutting out an undefeated Ray Mercer coming off a career best win over Tommy Morrison.

Foreman goes the distance against Holyfield and gives a competitive bout.
Official Scores were: 116-111, 117-110, 115-112

Holmes goes the distance with Holyfield and gives a competitive bout.
Official Score were: 116-112, 116-112, 117-111

Tyson 4 years earlier against better version of Holmes brutally stops him in 4 rounds.

Yet somehow a Foreman who ends up turning down 4 separate offers from Mike Tyson's camp is supposed to have beaten him?

If Tyson had brutally stopped Foreman in 4 rounds instead of Holmes, would people claim that Holmes would have upset Tyson?

There is either an anti-Tyson agenda or equally likely there is the notion that somehow punchers are more dangerous than boxers, either way it's flawed.

Once again, great post. The other argument against Tyson in this match up is that of the version showing up in 1991 with less head movement and one punch arsenal. A short armed, offensive fighter that didn't move his head enough is supposedly canon fodder for Big George. This wasn't peak Tyson but prime Tyson. Would it make a difference? What say you?

[MRBILL]

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

How could anyone pick a George Foreman over Mike Tyson in 1991? It would be a one sided contest.

Bullshit... That hard 257 Foreman weighed for Holy in April was fine for a style like Tyson's...... It was indeed wrong for a boxer with finess like Evan Fields displayed in Atlantic City....... Foreman had to cut-off and trap Holy in spurts; Tyson of 1991 would be right in front of Foreman trying to recapture that lost head movement of 1988....... Foreman at 257 was well-tuned for Tyson's style of 1991.... Holy was more athletic by that juncture...... That speed and lateral movement Holy had in Jersey was very good and too much for the slow-of-foot Foreman to cope with over 12 rds......

MR.BILL

[PetethePrince]

Where's Duodenum when you need him. My confidence on 91 Foreman over Tyson has waned over time. Still would have be interesting to see. The idea that Morrison and Stewart won, and therefore Foreman is automatically out of it is nonsensical. We all know how Tyson fights, and how Foreman fights. That's the intrigue with the matchup. It's most likely that Tyson's speed would be too damn troubling for Foreman. At the same time, Foreman's clubbing power probably wouldn't be enough of a concern for a fighter as durable as Tyson. That doesn't mean it wouldn't be interesting to see Foreman bombing uppercuts and pushing Tyson back like a rag doll for however long the fight lasted before Tyson got to him.

Foreman's durability, and cross-armed defense could keep him around for longer than most might expect. It would be interesting to see how Tyson treated Foreman. Would he overly respect him, or try to devour him like another opponent? Would he actually box and move a bit more. Somewhat similiar to the early goings of the Berbick fight? Who knows, I'd bet more on the former than the latter.

If you think Foreman is hopeless. I guess your reasons are he's too slow, or Tyson is too durable if Foreman's power lands anyway. If you acknowledge that it's a HW contest with two top-level punchers, then it isn't out of the realms for an upset to occur. What was the punch that Bruno landed that appeared to hurt Tyson? What are Tyson's physical dimensions? Of course, Tyson is the "favorite." But what happens if Foreman can actually push Tyson back. Again, I don't think Foreman should be written off entirely.

[he grant]

Foeman had a remarkable second career .. he was very smart ... he built himself up over time ... he did retain many skills .. he remained a very strong, tough , well conditioned, hard hitting, extremely intelligent fighter with a clubbing jab ... however he very carefully selected his opponents .. he never fought Riddick Bowe or Lennox Lewis and absolutely never had any intention to do so .. he knew better ... he would have fought Mike Tyson because he believed he had a shot of beating him based on style and psyche ... I personally believe he was extremely fortunate not to have had the shot because I believe any version of the early nineties Tyson was way to fast , fast starting and hard hitting for that Foreman ... still, Foreman took the best of Holyfield, Moorer, Morrison and had an amazing run ... the fact that he is richer than Midas and in retention of all his faculties is a tremendous positive statement for boxing !!!

[PowerPuncher]

Nevermind just the Morrison and Steward, throw the Lyle fight in the mix too

[The Mongoose]

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

Ahh so these B level fighters knew how to become smart and adapt to beat Foreman, but an ATG prime Mike Tyson isn't capable of doing that? I see

Exactly.

That's always been my take on the subject if fucking Tommy Morrison can adapt to Foreman, Tyson can. No that he'll have to run like The Duke either, as his defense is good enough on the attack.

Tyson would just pick spots on poor old George, make him miss with that slow jab, come in with hooks over the top, throw a half assed combo to his crossed armed guard, clinch, wrestle a little..reset..rinse, wash, repeat.

Now Tyson might get clubbed a few times but this isn't Moorer, Tyson would never get caught on the chin upright like that. Tyson brawls but he moves while he does it, unlike Moorer who plants his feet and stands upright to trade. If they really went at it, arms swinging, Foreman would be missing and get countered to death.

[mr. magoo]

For those who say that Tyson would most certainly " change his style " in an effort to adapt to Foreman's, It is almost a form of admission that he couldn't beat him in his normal groove ( which incidentally is what we would have most likely seen. ) I don't know that I have the confidence in Tyson to make such drastic changes in going from a pure puncher to taking more of a boxing stance. By 1991, he wasn't showing improved skills, but rather ones that were diminished. Why didn't he display more of the upper body movement, workrate and combinations that we saw in 1987, against Razor Ruddock in 1991? What you're basically asking for, is to take a man who lost some of the best skills he had, and reincarnate him with a whole new skill set that he wasn't even made for in the first place.. And nor do I buy the comparison that " if Morrison could do it, so could Tyson. " Tommy was 6'2", and had a 76 " wingspan, which is about the same description of any man who ever defeated Foreman from the outside..he was also a southpaw, which may or may not have had an impact on the equation. That said, I still think Tyson would have the better chance of winning by virtue of still having faster handspeed, devastating one punch power and an unrelenting tendency to attack, which would be a problem for a much older slower opponent. But some of the logic used in a lot of these arguments doesn't sit well with me..

[KINGOFTHE1ROUND]

George was 45 when he fought Tommy Morrison and George wanted Tyson when he was 41.
That Morrison and Foreman fight was Tommy's best win which is strange considering how much Tommy turned his back and ran away from George. Tommy did some long range boxing in that fight. Stewart's best fight was also the loss to Foreman and George admitted he didn't train for a long fight. Stylistically,any Foreman is a bad match up for Tyson.
Morrison and Stewart weren't as quick handed or powerful as Tyson but they both hit very hard and had more KO's late than Tyson. George could take some hard shots for sure and Tyson was really only a very dangerous KO puncher until round 5. Past round 5 Tyson would stop throwing his combos and stand too straight up as always and Old George would start to bring the pain. And old George WOULD make it past Tyson's early attacks and he would be able to manhandle Mike with ease.
Old George knew he could beat Tyson which is why he always called him out after fights.
Bert Cooper who had some really tough fights against Holyfield and Moorer didint get to the third round with Old Foreman. George was very capable even in old age.
Old Foreman KO9 Tyson
Prime Foreman KO3 Tyson

[SuzieQ49]

I don't know that I have the confidence in Tyson to make such drastic changes in going from a pure puncher to taking more of a boxing stance.

But you have such confidence in Tommy Morrison? Morrison must have been some ATG fighter to be able to adapt his whole style!

[SuzieQ49]

against Razor Ruddock in 1991?

Speaking of which, would Foreman have been able to defeat Razor Ruddock in 1991? Highly doubt it

[SuzieQ49]

For those who say that Tyson would most certainly " change his style " in an effort to adapt to Foreman's,

I think Tyson could go toe to toe with a 42 year old foreman and take him out

[The Mongoose]

We all know my thoughts on 91 Ruddock, but he was actually a step up from the George who faced Evander.

And Mike wouldn't have to change his style too much against Old Foreman. A slow stationary jabber, Mike would give him fits with just his ordinary bob and weave approach. Morrison changed his style because Foreman was the only opponent he faced that was slow enough he could successfully box and run from.

Foreman was too slow to brawl and he knew it, he tried to win fights with his jab and long right bomb. He played the turtle from his cross armed stance. This isn't young Foreman with that huge sweeping uppercut. Remember when Evander finally opened up on him with those short hooks, banging Foreman all over the place? This is what will happen if Foreman doesn't bear hug Tyson on the inside. It would get very ugly.

[The Mongoose]

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

But you have such confidence in Tommy Morrison? Morrison must have been some ATG fighter to be able to adapt his whole style!

Its not like Mike would have to resort to Tommy "Down Again" Morrison's run and gun tactics anyway, but if need be, Tyson could very well emulate it. Its not like the Duke showed any special skills, Foreman was just so slow, he couldn't walk a moving target down.