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Old 05-25-2012, 11:43 AM   #31
brown bomber
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Default Re: Is sprinting in any way helpful for boxing?

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Originally Posted by AdamB View Post
Out of curiousity, I read a fair amount of sports science journals, a bunch of blogs etc (often feels like a mistake with the endlessly contradicting views). I have read on a number of occasions that hard intervals should be saved for before an event rather than used in training all of the time - kind of cycled like people do with supplements.

I'm interested because right now for roadwork I do basically what you've posted there:

1 session of sprints - I start by doing the full length of an alley near my house twice, then use the lamp posts as progressively smaller markers for a total of about 8 sprints with the time spent walking back (takes about a minute) as rest.

1 session of intervals - I use a relatively hilly road near me, set a timer for 2 minutes and run hard for that 2 minutes, throwing a few flat out sprints intermittently sort of like fartlek training, 30 seconds rest and then go again 6 times.

1 long run at a slow pace.

Should I change this up or am I putting too much stock in articles that are based upon studies on professional athletes who train at a far higher intensity than myself?

Cheers.
I wouldn't bother with sprints and put a good resistance circuit in there instead..... Sprints as in the 10 second variety have little use in boxing unless you link them together with very little rest.... In which case it surely becomes an interval run.

IMO of course. It works for me anyway.
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Old 05-25-2012, 12:00 PM   #32
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Default Re: Is sprinting in any way helpful for boxing?

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I wouldn't bother with sprints and put a good resistance circuit in there instead..... Sprints as in the 10 second variety have little use in boxing unless you link them together with very little rest.... In which case it surely becomes an interval run.

IMO of course. It works for me anyway.
Thanks for your response. When you say a resistance circuit, are you just talking light weights/medicine ball exercises/bodyweight stuff?
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Old 05-25-2012, 12:24 PM   #33
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Default Re: Is sprinting in any way helpful for boxing?

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That doesn't demonstrate anything to be honest. My point was that a 3 minute boxing round is nothing like a 3 minute run of any sort. Running is a linear activity, boxing is 3 minutes of intermittent work. Running at a certain intensity is adding and adding. Boxing is adding, then subtracting then adding again if you get what I mean.
I don't know where you got the idea that those adaptations don't happen at higher intensities, increased stroke volume can only be increased to any significant extent by those higher intensities. The increased mitochondria is perhaps the only training adaptation that is best targeted by aerobic lipolysis training but that doesn't equate to increased endurance in boxing because it's a peripheral adaptation that is associated with slow twitch fibres. I don't see boxing matches going for three hours with lots of slow and weak punches being thrown so until that it happens it's neither here nor there.
It's a matter of sports specificity, it's 101 that you train the energy system your sport uses. There is no training that isn't using all the energy systems simultaneously, it's just a matter of proportions.
Fatigue is pretty well understood, lactic acid is a substrate to produce ATP so it is helpful actually, it's the build up of hydrogen ions which lowers the ph in the blood and muscles causing acidity, that interferes with the release of calcium which stops muscles contracting properly. It's a lot more complicated than that and central factors can be involved as well (neurotransmitters etc.).
Studies on international amateurs show that they do tolerate those intensities during a boxing match, 11 minutes isn't a long time. They are getting their heart rates up that high, above their anaerobic thresholds then they drop back below, a well developed aerobic system is still needed for faster recovery in breaks between rounds. No boxer is doing it easy while they are fighting, it's not a comfortable sport. You can desensitise your body to the acidity and increase that anaerobic threshold but you are meant to have large build ups of lactic acid after every bout. That's the sport, it's anaerobic in nature so you have that build up of lactic acid. You don't train for a weightlifting competition by riding your bicycle for 2 hours, that's what sports specificity is.
When your heart rate drops down a bit during your breaks between combinations of punches or between sprint intervals that's your aerobic training right there, there's no need for long runs. Those repeat, high intensity efforts develop the type IIa fibres and condition your body to deal with the inevitable lactic acid build up more efficiently.
Okay, thanks for the reply, not disputing the anaerobic lactic role in boxing, or that weightlifting competitors should not ride a bike for 2 hours. Also agree that the shorter the duration of the athletic event, the more that the anaerobic lactic system and anaerobic alactic is in use. I am just going to resign myself to the idea that maybe I am not able to convey or articulate my thoughts like I would like.

It still would be helpful to check out the website and the presentation, as well as his thoughts on the forums and his articles on further functions of the aerobic energy system's functions, even as it pertains to anaerobic processes, even if you disagree. His proportions show a much further dominant emphasis in combat sports overall on the development of the aerobic energy system to any other energy system. In reading his stuff it makes sense to me and I have seen vast improvements in my own conditioning using his methods. The forum is great to chat like this as well. I will look at the research you have cited. Thanks again.

Last edited by TVLPC; 05-25-2012 at 01:08 PM.
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Old 05-26-2012, 03:08 AM   #34
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Default Re: Is sprinting in any way helpful for boxing?

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Okay, thanks for the reply, not disputing the anaerobic lactic role in boxing, or that weightlifting competitors should not ride a bike for 2 hours. Also agree that the shorter the duration of the athletic event, the more that the anaerobic lactic system and anaerobic alactic is in use. I am just going to resign myself to the idea that maybe I am not able to convey or articulate my thoughts like I would like.

It still would be helpful to check out the website and the presentation, as well as his thoughts on the forums and his articles on further functions of the aerobic energy system's functions, even as it pertains to anaerobic processes, even if you disagree. His proportions show a much further dominant emphasis in combat sports overall on the development of the aerobic energy system to any other energy system. In reading his stuff it makes sense to me and I have seen vast improvements in my own conditioning using his methods. The forum is great to chat like this as well. I will look at the research you have cited. Thanks again.
I don't think you get how this works, you're meant to come back at me with some more evidence from your side as well as launching a few personal attacks... you're too nice bro. I had a look at the presentation slides and as I said it didn't explain anything new to me but I'll have a look at the website as well, thanks. If something's helping you make improvements keep at it I guess. Aerobic system is important no doubt, if you do your LSD and get anaerobic conditioning from pad/bag interval drills and sparring I guess you'd have all bases covered.
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Old 05-26-2012, 12:06 PM   #35
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Default Re: Is sprinting in any way helpful for boxing?

just go and sprint its good. its not gnna be exactly BAD is it, i even class walking far to the shops as part of my daily training
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Old 05-26-2012, 12:12 PM   #36
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Default Re: Is sprinting in any way helpful for boxing?

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just go and sprint its good. its not gnna be exactly BAD is it, i even class walking far to the shops as part of my daily training
Who said it was going to be bad? I said I'm going for my mate and I just wanted to know if it would help for boxing while I was down there.
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Old 05-26-2012, 01:13 PM   #37
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Default Re: Is sprinting in any way helpful for boxing?

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I think its an underrated power builder, and well recognised conditioner, both anaerobic and aerobic, if you consider a fast run of 1000m or less a sprint, which I do. Anything under 5 minutes of hard work is cracking.
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Old 05-26-2012, 03:59 PM   #38
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Default Re: Is sprinting in any way helpful for boxing?

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I don't think you get how this works, you're meant to come back at me with some more evidence from your side as well as launching a few personal attacks... you're too nice bro. I had a look at the presentation slides and as I said it didn't explain anything new to me but I'll have a look at the website as well, thanks. If something's helping you make improvements keep at it I guess. Aerobic system is important no doubt, if you do your LSD and get anaerobic conditioning from pad/bag interval drills and sparring I guess you'd have all bases covered.
That's right, this should turn into a good ol fashioned internet war. You obviously know your stuff, even if you didn't I wouldn't do the other things that make these threads novels by the end.

I went back and reread your 2nd post and wanted to attempt to clarify what I meant. Know that some of what I said was worded poorly on my part. First, the statistics simply were to illustrate how quickly the aerobic energy system becomes involved even in a 20 sec sprint, but I get what you are saying about the "interval nature of boxing," and that the two sports are not comparable in that regard. Yes, I agree that you have to train for sport specificity. Training a pitcher to have a well developed aerobic system would be ridiculous, as the nature of throwing a curve ball, punting a football, throwing a cross, takedown, and so forth is anaerobic and requires strict energy from the anaerobic alactic system. What I was poorly trying to get at is that the aerobic system works "underneath it all" to regenerate the necessary alactic energy and remove metabolic waste produced in these flurries and any other high level intensity sports activities. I think you said this in one of your posts also.

As far as the 70/30, I was including in the "equation" rest periods as well, which as you stated is aerobic in nature. In addition, parrying punches, circling, and passive periods during rounds in boxing require high demands from the aerobic energy system in order to help "refuel" anaerobic processes as was said so that a fighter can throw punches/flurries again. Perhaps the percentages are off, but the aerobic energy system is doing a great amount of work underneath, which was my point.

As for the AT, yes, you are right, meaning those high HR numbers are tolerable for that period. However, when I stated any extended length of time, I assumed you meant from start to finish which was stupid. Thus you can understand my stating "two very gassed fighters." Obviously in reading your posts, this was a stupid assumption on my part given you know what you are discussing and would consider rest periods. The HR drops below AT probably in a well trained athlete maybe 20-30 seconds within the minute rest in a bout, and by the time for the next round, is probably down in the 140s or if in very good cardio shape, 130s. Come out for the bell, and the HR stays below AT for 20-30 seconds, with high levels of work then raises above AT, stays there for a length of time, dips with "active" breaks during the round, probably still above AT, and so forth.

I definitely do not just believe in LSD, but it is seen almost always as the bad guy and I do believe that there are benefits to it. On the complete other end of the spectrum, maximal intensity exercises that elevates the heart rate to very high BPM are important also due to conditioning self not to fatigue at higher heart rates and still delivers oxygen. In the middle interval stuff, steady state work, etc. has it's place also.

I guess this started with the Tabata discussion, which I firmly believe that these more extreme versions of methods should be used sparingly. Hopefully as for everything else, it made a little more sense, even if not accurate. Feel free to let me know if I am still off base after my explanation. While I feel I have a pretty decent working knowledge of this, you do seem to understand this better than I do.

Lastly as a side not as related to the other things, in a book I have written by Joel Jamieson, he states that research had shown a direct link between mitochondria in the muscle fibers and their relaxation speed, even as it pertains to when high levels of power are generated. I bring this up because the speed of relaxation is usually not talked about. what are your thoughts on this, as it surprised me about the mitochondria's role when I first read it?

I genuinely want to have the right information more-so than just being right. Therefore, let me know if what I am saying is not accurate or you have a different take. At the end of the day, it's not like Ali and Frazier or their trainers had this information when they went 15 rounds at that pace, but I enjoy discussing it all the same.

Last edited by TVLPC; 05-26-2012 at 04:24 PM.
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Old 05-29-2012, 11:36 AM   #39
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Default Re: Is sprinting in any way helpful for boxing?

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My team and I do sprints up a hill.
So we do a full sprint until we reach the top, which takes us roughly 30 seconds.
At this point we are gasping for air.
Then we walk down while recovering and catching our breath, which takes about 1 minute.
Then we repeat the uphill sprint again.
We do this about 6 times. Then repeat up a flight of stairs 4 times.

I'm no expert, but from personal experience, nothing gets me in better anaerobic shape for a fight than this one exercise alone. You are basically forced to recover fast...or else.
The difference after a week of this exercise is immediately noticeable in the ring.

So my vote goes to anaerobic conditioning. Anything you do that involves running will absolutely build strength in your legs, but I consider that to be a secondary benefit.
This is similar to the style of running I do
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Old 05-29-2012, 11:19 PM   #40
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Default Re: Is sprinting in any way helpful for boxing?

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Originally Posted by TVLPC View Post
That's right, this should turn into a good ol fashioned internet war. You obviously know your stuff, even if you didn't I wouldn't do the other things that make these threads novels by the end.

I went back and reread your 2nd post and wanted to attempt to clarify what I meant. Know that some of what I said was worded poorly on my part. First, the statistics simply were to illustrate how quickly the aerobic energy system becomes involved even in a 20 sec sprint, but I get what you are saying about the "interval nature of boxing," and that the two sports are not comparable in that regard. Yes, I agree that you have to train for sport specificity. Training a pitcher to have a well developed aerobic system would be ridiculous, as the nature of throwing a curve ball, punting a football, throwing a cross, takedown, and so forth is anaerobic and requires strict energy from the anaerobic alactic system. What I was poorly trying to get at is that the aerobic system works "underneath it all" to regenerate the necessary alactic energy and remove metabolic waste produced in these flurries and any other high level intensity sports activities. I think you said this in one of your posts also.

As far as the 70/30, I was including in the "equation" rest periods as well, which as you stated is aerobic in nature. In addition, parrying punches, circling, and passive periods during rounds in boxing require high demands from the aerobic energy system in order to help "refuel" anaerobic processes as was said so that a fighter can throw punches/flurries again. Perhaps the percentages are off, but the aerobic energy system is doing a great amount of work underneath, which was my point.

As for the AT, yes, you are right, meaning those high HR numbers are tolerable for that period. However, when I stated any extended length of time, I assumed you meant from start to finish which was stupid. Thus you can understand my stating "two very gassed fighters." Obviously in reading your posts, this was a stupid assumption on my part given you know what you are discussing and would consider rest periods. The HR drops below AT probably in a well trained athlete maybe 20-30 seconds within the minute rest in a bout, and by the time for the next round, is probably down in the 140s or if in very good cardio shape, 130s. Come out for the bell, and the HR stays below AT for 20-30 seconds, with high levels of work then raises above AT, stays there for a length of time, dips with "active" breaks during the round, probably still above AT, and so forth.

I definitely do not just believe in LSD, but it is seen almost always as the bad guy and I do believe that there are benefits to it. On the complete other end of the spectrum, maximal intensity exercises that elevates the heart rate to very high BPM are important also due to conditioning self not to fatigue at higher heart rates and still delivers oxygen. In the middle interval stuff, steady state work, etc. has it's place also.

I guess this started with the Tabata discussion, which I firmly believe that these more extreme versions of methods should be used sparingly. Hopefully as for everything else, it made a little more sense, even if not accurate. Feel free to let me know if I am still off base after my explanation. While I feel I have a pretty decent working knowledge of this, you do seem to understand this better than I do.

Lastly as a side not as related to the other things, in a book I have written by Joel Jamieson, he states that research had shown a direct link between mitochondria in the muscle fibers and their relaxation speed, even as it pertains to when high levels of power are generated. I bring this up because the speed of relaxation is usually not talked about. what are your thoughts on this, as it surprised me about the mitochondria's role when I first read it?

I genuinely want to have the right information more-so than just being right. Therefore, let me know if what I am saying is not accurate or you have a different take. At the end of the day, it's not like Ali and Frazier or their trainers had this information when they went 15 rounds at that pace, but I enjoy discussing it all the same.
Yeah I get what you're saying, the aerobic system is important no doubt, it's never just one energy system or the other. They all support each other, you're on the money with that.
Tabata intervals I don't have a problem with apart from the name and people acting as if they're some magical training method. They're just intervals, but for 4 minutes total including rest periods.
I haven't heard about mitochondria and relaxation speed and I don't really understand what the implications are for that so I'll have to suss that out, thanks man
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Old 05-30-2012, 01:34 AM   #41
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Default Re: Is sprinting in any way helpful for boxing?

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Originally Posted by Speechless View Post
My team and I do sprints up a hill.
So we do a full sprint until we reach the top, which takes us roughly 30 seconds.
At this point we are gasping for air.
Then we walk down while recovering and catching our breath, which takes about 1 minute.
Then we repeat the uphill sprint again.
We do this about 6 times. Then repeat up a flight of stairs 4 times.

I'm no expert, but from personal experience, nothing gets me in better anaerobic shape for a fight than this one exercise alone. You are basically forced to recover fast...or else.
The difference after a week of this exercise is immediately noticeable in the ring.

So my vote goes to anaerobic conditioning. Anything you do that involves running will absolutely build strength in your legs, but I consider that to be a secondary benefit.
I like this idea. I don't like traditional track work (100m sprints), so I'm going to try this.
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Old 05-30-2012, 01:44 AM   #42
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Default Re: Is sprinting in any way helpful for boxing?

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Thanks for your response. When you say a resistance circuit, are you just talking light weights/medicine ball exercises/bodyweight stuff?
BB: Can you give us a sample routine? Sometimes definitions of intervals and resistance circuits vary. This would be in addition to the once per week long/slow run.
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