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Old 01-13-2008, 08:51 PM   #16
Bill1234
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Default Re: Help with my #5 Heavyweight

I would have Marciano there.

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Rocky Marciano
4. Larry Holmes
5. Lennox Lewis
6. Jack Johnson
7. George Foreman
8. Jack Dempsey
9. Sonny Liston
10. Joe Frazier

My list is a bit dicey yet because I just recently put Lewis up and haven't really considered the other rankings.
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Old 01-13-2008, 08:52 PM   #17
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Default Re: Help with my #5 Heavyweight

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Originally Posted by anon1
yes both are important but resume is more influenced by politics of boxing. everyone knows that liston was ducked by floyd so he was the uncrowned king who beat a good list of contenders. what would liston's resume look like if he didn't have muhammad ali to derail him? what liston was around in 1990s to fight 1999 holy and 2002 tyson. what if lewis was in 1960s facing guys like ali, foreman, and liston himself? true, liston doesn't officially have as many "title" defenses - but he beat a string of very good contenders, had 1 loss to marty marshal in a competitive & understanable circumstance (it was his 8th fight) and then to ali and the last one was when he was 72 years old. people will rate lewis higher than liston but had the times switched - liston would have done just as well if not better. for these circumstantial reasons i weigh head to head very heavily, and those opinions MUST be at least "backed up" by achievments in the ring - which they are.
Fair post mate. Liston is heavily competing and your comments will sure help when his spot is determined.
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Old 01-13-2008, 08:52 PM   #18
JohnThomas1
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Default Re: Help with my #5 Heavyweight

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill1234
I would have Marciano there.

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Rocky Marciano
4. Larry Holmes
5. Lennox Lewis
6. Jack Johnson
7. George Foreman
8. Jack Dempsey
9. Sonny Liston
10. Joe Frazier

My list is a bit dicey yet because I just recently put Lewis up and haven't really considered the other rankings.
A very defendable list Bill.
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Old 01-13-2008, 09:20 PM   #19
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Default Re: Help with my #5 Heavyweight

I'd look closely at Holyfield.

A small HW with a Marciano-mentality in terms of never-say-die and extreme-conditioning who cut a swathe against respectable guys en route to the HW title. That war with a resurrected Dokes on the way was something to behold. It may have been the best brawl since Manila. He vanquished Douglas who exploded Tyson. He turned back a dangerous and ready Foreman, beat an older but still formidable Holmes, and lost to a version of Bowe that I would rank very high on the HW head-to-head list. With Futch in his corner and on that Dick Gregory diet, Bowe was a force that night. But then we had the surprise of Holyfield beating Bowe in the rematch ... looking back, that victory is extreme. Holyfield really had no business beating any of the giants. But he did. Then he destroyed a comebacking Tyson at the last moment of Tyson's mythical powers.

I like his power too -the first man to put down Bowe. The first man to put down Mercer. The KO of Tyson. And he was the best cruiser ever before stepping up.
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Old 01-13-2008, 09:24 PM   #20
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Default Re: Help with my #5 Heavyweight

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89
I'd look closely at Holyfield.

A small HW with a Marciano-mentality in terms of never-say-die and extreme-conditioning who cut a swathe against respectable guys en route to the HW title. That war with a resurrected Dokes on the way was something to behold. It may have been the best brawl since Manila. He vanquished Douglas who exploded Tyson. He turned back a dangerous and ready Foreman, beat an older but still formidable Holmes, and lost to a version of Bowe that I would rank very high on the HW head-to-head list. With Futch in his corner and on that Dick Gregory diet, Bowe was a force that night. But then we had the surprise of Holyfield beating Bowe in the rematch ... looking back, that victory is extreme. Holyfield really had no business beating any of the giants. But he did. Then he destroyed a comebacking Tyson at the last moment of Tyson's mythical powers.

I like his power too -the first man to put down Bowe. The first man to put down Mercer. The KO of Tyson. And he was the best cruiser ever before stepping up.
Appreciate the comments and all are helping me greatly in thrashing my bottom 5 out.
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Old 01-13-2008, 09:30 PM   #21
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Default Re: Help with my #5 Heavyweight

Quote:
Originally Posted by anon1
1. ali
2. louis
3. liston
4. holmes
5. foreman

liston would have beaten every fighter except ali & louis. he'd have beaten foreman & louis too.

edit: i like that triangle shape of my list!
You just said he'd lose to Louis, then you said he'd beat him. Which? I personally think Liston a tad overrated head to head because of his size, he was not as big as he seemed. Someone like Foreman was a much bigger fighter, and a bigger hitter. Lewis makes him look like a shrimp. Hell, even Ali made him look semi-small. I'd take Holmes, Ali, Lewis, Foreman, and possibly Tyson over Liston head to head of the top Heavys.
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Old 01-13-2008, 09:31 PM   #22
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Default Re: Help with my #5 Heavyweight

I think the Rock is probably a fair pick. Foreman works pretty well for me to. It looks like this is a unanimous vote for John's #5 pick, but of course we all still appreciate Janitor's input.
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Old 01-14-2008, 01:28 AM   #23
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Default Re: Help with my #5 Heavyweight

I'd say Marciano, but all those guys should be ranked ahead of Lennox Lewis.
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Old 01-14-2008, 01:46 AM   #24
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Default Re: Help with my #5 Heavyweight

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
I think that if we accept your 1-4 then the clear cut candidate for the No5 slot would be Jack Johnson or Jack Dempsey.

So none of the above.
I think Jack Johnson
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Old 01-14-2008, 01:55 AM   #25
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Default Re: Help with my #5 Heavyweight

I'm no expert but here's my breakdown with the choices for top 5:

Foreman - ran his division for awhile. Made perhaps the greatest comeback in history.
Liston - tough nut to crack. Good wins tainted with the "fix" fight and losses to "unremarkable" opposition.
Frazier - loses only to Ali and Foreman. Tasted the canvas a lot, didn't hold the title for long. Could be argued that his title was defended against weak opposition (i.e. a somewhat green Ali, Ron Stander)
Holyfield - good run early on followed by a fairly bad decline. Basing his HW career, on Tyson I and II, Bowe II, Foreman, and Moorer, I would rank him high. But there is John Ruiz, Larry Donald, etc.
Marciano - 49-0 against the tops of his day...even if the tops were not the Golden Era HW's.
Tyson - schooled a weak division. Didn't bounce back from losing all that well as others did. Became a crude one-punch KO'er (or tried to be later on).

My picks are between Foreman and Rocky M. But they're all greats.
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Old 01-14-2008, 01:56 AM   #26
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Default Re: Help with my #5 Heavyweight

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. magoo
I think the Rock is probably a fair pick. Foreman works pretty well for me to. It looks like this is a unanimous vote for John's #5 pick, but of course we all still appreciate Janitor's input.
Hehehehe, good one.

Yeah Marciano is looking good mate and Foreman has a big head start for 6.
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Old 01-14-2008, 01:58 AM   #27
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Default Re: Help with my #5 Heavyweight

Quote:
Originally Posted by punchy
I think Jack Johnson
Tho i didn't mention it i have to be honest and say i am going from around Dempsey's era forward. Dempsey won't quite make my ten but it's not about his placing or merits but more so how to finalise my own 10. Little doubt Johnson would make the cut. Sorry i didn't mention this actually.
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Old 01-14-2008, 02:04 AM   #28
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Default Re: Help with my #5 Heavyweight

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveO
I'm no expert but here's my breakdown with the choices for top 5:

Foreman - ran his division for awhile. Made perhaps the greatest comeback in history.
Liston - tough nut to crack. Good wins tainted with the "fix" fight and losses to "unremarkable" opposition.
Frazier - loses only to Ali and Foreman. Tasted the canvas a lot, didn't hold the title for long. Could be argued that his title was defended against weak opposition (i.e. a somewhat green Ali, Ron Stander)
Holyfield - good run early on followed by a fairly bad decline. Basing his HW career, on Tyson I and II, Bowe II, Foreman, and Moorer, I would rank him high. But there is John Ruiz, Larry Donald, etc.
Marciano - 49-0 against the tops of his day...even if the tops were not the Golden Era HW's.
Tyson - schooled a weak division. Didn't bounce back from losing all that well as others did. Became a crude one-punch KO'er (or tried to be later on).

My picks are between Foreman and Rocky M. But they're all greats.
Your input is both respected and appreciated. I find your points mostly spot on. I have Marciano all but locked in now, but on further reflection George still has a long way to go to convince me. I'll expand in my next thread but for starters he never had any decent period of dominance whatsoever and even tho his comeback win is utterly compelling there are various nuances involved. Holyfield beat him comfortably prior and i have to say he was the right man in the right place at the right time. I still rank it among the greatest ever sporting achievements but am starting to dig deeper.
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Old 01-14-2008, 02:09 AM   #29
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Default Re: Help with my #5 Heavyweight

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
Your input is both respected and appreciated. I find your points mostly spot on. I have Marciano all but locked in now, but on further reflection George still has a long way to go to convince me. I'll expand in my next thread but for starters he never had any decent period of dominance whatsoever and even tho his comeback win is utterly compelling there are various nuances involved. Holyfield beat him comfortably prior and i have to say he was the right man in the right place at the right time. I still rank it among the greatest ever sporting achievements but am starting to dig deeper.
Glad to help. I agree about George, too. His win over Moorer is the stuff of legends and he put on a respectable performance against Holyfield but he had some losses there, gift wins, some bad beatings, and so on.

It can just be hard to think about comeback George and not picture him blasting Moorer on the chin.
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Old 01-14-2008, 02:15 AM   #30
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Default Re: Help with my #5 Heavyweight

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveO
Glad to help. I agree about George, too. His win over Moorer is the stuff of legends and he put on a respectable performance against Holyfield but he had some losses there, gift wins, some bad beatings, and so on.

It can just be hard to think about comeback George and not picture him blasting Moorer on the chin.
I know what you mean, but i can also picture the previous plodding rounds. He's a hard one to judge, like Liston.
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