Could Sugar Ray Leonard have been even greater than he was?

[Bill Butcher]

Yes, he could have been a top 5 p4per if he had remained unbeaten while continuing to fight elite fighters all the way thru his 1st retirement from 1982-87 (Howard bout in 84 aside)... imagine wins in a Hearns rematch & Duran rubber match at 154 lbs in 1982-83 followed by a Hagler win at MW no later than 84 ?

I`m not saying he`d win all or even one of those fights but if he did then who could grudge him all the accolades ?... red rooster perhaps ?

[Mr Valleyboy]

Originally Posted by Titan1

Marvin, for all his toughness, seemed to have a bit of a weak psyche.

Im not so sure He went through so many wars and came out on top. I think that for one he had a dislike of Ray and even some envy which no doubt put him off his standard game plan and Ray def got into his head (prob the only opponent who did)

[Hookie]

First of all... he is an all-time great.

No doubt he could have doen even more. He retired in '82. Came back for one fight in '84. Came back in '87. I know he had a detached retina but he could have came back sooner and stuck around after the '84 comeback. From '84 (Kevin Howard fight) - '87 (Marvin Hagler fight) he could have done a lot at WW, JMW, and even MW.

Had he stayed longer at 154 and done a little more at 160 it would have definately helped.

He beat Benitez KO15 in '79 for the WBC WW belt

He lost a close decision to Duran in '80 but regained the title with an 8th round KO just 5 months later

He won the JMW belt by stopping Ayube Kalule in 9 rounds in '81

He won the WBA WW belt by stopping Thomas Hearns in 14 rounds in '81

He retired in '82. In '84 he stopped Kevin Howard in 9 rounds but was knocked down in the fight.

In 1987 he beat Marvin Hagler by SD to win the WBC and Lineal MW title

Let's imagine what he could have done between the Howard and Hagler fights-

He may have faced the likes of:

Marlon Starling, Donald Curry, Lloyd Honeyghan, and Mike McCallum (JMW) before taking on Hagler. After Hagler, fights with Barkley and Nunn would have been exciting. Eventually a rematch with Hearns would have to happen....

Their fight in '89 ended in a draw (for the WBC/WBO SMW belts) but most felt Hearns won. Had Leonard had these fights prior to Hearns... would he have done better vs. Hearns (late '89 or early '90)?

[duranimal]

NO chance! Leonard could have fought anytime from 83 onwards but opted to stay safe & wait! Kalule pounded on him enough for Ray to know his Sugar $$$ brand would be extinguished if he'd dared too risk his neck against any of the prime bigger boys & hand picked journeyman Kevin Howard removed all doubt in Leonards mind that he could cut the mustard at the higher weights.hence Leonard could'nt quit the sport quick enough straight after the Howard debacle & said he did'nt want to embarrass himself!

He was crafty enough just too haunt ringside at all the major fights giving winks & hints about a comeback but he never had ant intention of doing so & especially not against an opponant who was still dangerous & uncomplient by way of the demands that Leonard became infamous for when he did decide the time was right to challange an older & slower Hagle! Shot Hearns! 37yr old Fatboy Duran! Weighed crippled titleist in lalonde for 2 joke title's.

What a load of crap that Leonard could have been greater than he was! The one time Leonard went in with a live opponant he got thrashed & decked twice for good measure by Norris! No way Leonard wins anytitle from 83 onwards & no one knew that more than Leonard or he would have come back as he craved the attention & limelight that was now being reflected onto others but he was'nt going to risk his $$$ brand & Howard put the fear up him big time & he could'nt flee the scene fast enough & that tells you everything about his chances of future glory & leonard should know!.

[ETM]

Originally Posted by duranimal

NO chance! Leonard could have fought anytime from 83 onwards but opted to stay safe & wait! Kalule pounded on him enough for Ray to know his Sugar $$$ brand would be extinguished if he'd dared too risk his neck against any of the prime bigger boys & hand picked journeyman Kevin Howard removed all doubt in Leonards mind that he could cut the mustard at the higher weights.hence Leonard could'nt quit the sport quick enough straight after the Howard debacle & said he did'nt want to embarrass himself!

He was crafty enough just too haunt ringside at all the major fights giving winks & hints about a comeback but he never had ant intention of doing so & especially not against an opponant who was still dangerous & uncomplient by way of the demands that Leonard became infamous for when he did decide the time was right to challange an older & slower Hagle! Shot Hearns! 37yr old Fatboy Duran! Weighed crippled titleist in lalonde for 2 joke title's.

What a load of crap that Leonard could have been greater than he was! The one time Leonard went in with a live opponant he got thrashed & decked twice for good measure by Norris! No way Leonard wins anytitle from 83 onwards & no one knew that more than Leonard or he would have come back as he craved the attention & limelight that was now being reflected onto others but he was'nt going to risk his $$$ brand & Howard put the fear up him big time & he could'nt flee the scene fast enough & that tells you everything about his chances of future glory & leonard should know!.

Nice.

I like the way you think.

[MAG1965]

Originally Posted by Hookie

First of all... he is an all-time great.

No doubt he could have doen even more. He retired in '82. Came back for one fight in '84. Came back in '87. I know he had a detached retina but he could have came back sooner and stuck around after the '84 comeback. From '84 (Kevin Howard fight) - '87 (Marvin Hagler fight) he could have done a lot at WW, JMW, and even MW.

Had he stayed longer at 154 and done a little more at 160 it would have definately helped.

He beat Benitez KO15 in '79 for the WBC WW belt

He lost a close decision to Duran in '80 but regained the title with an 8th round KO just 5 months later

He won the JMW belt by stopping Ayube Kalule in 9 rounds in '81

He won the WBA WW belt by stopping Thomas Hearns in 14 rounds in '81

He retired in '82. In '84 he stopped Kevin Howard in 9 rounds but was knocked down in the fight.

In 1987 he beat Marvin Hagler by SD to win the WBC and Lineal MW title

Let's imagine what he could have done between the Howard and Hagler fights-

He may have faced the likes of:

Marlon Starling, Donald Curry, Lloyd Honeyghan, and Mike McCallum (JMW) before taking on Hagler. After Hagler, fights with Barkley and Nunn would have been exciting. Eventually a rematch with Hearns would have to happen....

Their fight in '89 ended in a draw (for the WBC/WBO SMW belts) but most felt Hearns won. Had Leonard had these fights prior to Hearns... would he have done better vs. Hearns (late '89 or early '90)?

same can be said had he fought Hearns in 1987 when Tommy was fighting better. He tried to get a win over Hearns when Tommy was looking washed up in that Barkley,Kinchen era, but Tommy adjusted well and had heart to change his style a little and persevere. Ray fought Hearns when Hearns was transitioning into a better defensive and slower paced fighter, when Tommy was going more rounds in his fights. Regardless, the fight does not really hurt or help him as much as helps Tommy. Ray showed a lot of heart in that fight taking a lot of punishement.

[redrooster]

he would have success in the early 80s with easy wins over Stafford N McCrory but when presented with higher order competiton, namely a vastly improved hitman, hits the wall, gets ko'd

tries his luck against Hagler, gets ko'd again. end of career

[Hands of Iron]

Originally Posted by ETM

Nice.

I like the way you think.

Duranimal is very colorful with his commentaries. Whether he's ranting or raving, he has a passion for the sport that bleeds out of written text, and that's rare.

[fists of fury]

Originally Posted by Hands of Iron

Duranimal is very colorful with his commentaries. Whether he's ranting or raving, he has a passion for the sport that bleeds out of written text, and that's rare.

Colourful guy.

Does anyone give Leonard credit for taking on Norris? Just curious.

[redrooster]

Originally Posted by fists of fury

Colourful guy.

Does anyone give Leonard credit for taking on Norris? Just curious.

I give Terry credit for signing to face leonard, a prohibitive favorite!

Sugar lacked the right stuff to get in there with the slicker, quicker guys like Nunn. He was a little more confident about his chances going in with Norris but it was of no matter that Norris was not an established commodity like Sir Micheal for it was Terry's SPEED that carried the day en route to an effortless win.

Terry reminded me of a young Ali as his fists frequently stung Leonard and then floated away from harm in the manner of a butterfly.

No doubt a win over Norris sounds a lot more impressive than a one sided loss

[Jacquot]

Anyone who thinks a twenty something to early thirtysomething Leonard "gets knocked out a couple of times" is kidding themselves.

It all turned out for the best for Leonard anyway. He had so few miles put on him during that time that he gets to live his 50's and 60's not punch drunk.

[red cobra]

Leonard wouldn't have lost the first Duran fight had he used the same tactics he used in No Mas. Hell yeah, he could have been greater.

[Nightcrawler]

on the fence with this one...don't like leonard but respect him. respect oscar more, who took on the most dangerous fighters possible, win or lose. leonard fell short of that. i think duranimal takes it a bit too far but leonard did manipulate events to his advantage and avoid certain dangers

[afterglow]

Originally Posted by red cobra

Leonard wouldn't have lost the first Duran fight had he used the same tactics he used in No Mas. Hell yeah, he could have been greater.

I'm no expect. But i'll never understand this.

In the second fight, two of the judges had Leonard up by 2, and one had him up by 1, and his fans make it seem like he pitched a shutout.

Ray wanted to fight Duran's fight the first time around. But I also believe it was Duran's night, and he wasn't gonna let Ray fight any other way than the way he wanted him to in Montreal.

[ETM]

Originally Posted by afterglow

I'm no expect. But i'll never understand this.

In the second fight, two of the judges had Leonard up by 2, and one had him up by 1, and his fans make it seem like he pitched a shutout.

Ray wanted to fight Duran's fight the first time around. But I also believe it was Duran's night, and he wasn't gonna let Ray fight any other way than the way he wanted him to in Montreal.

Good points.

The fight in New Orleans was hardly a whitewash.