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Old 06-05-2012, 06:52 PM   #61
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Default Re: Could Sugar Ray Leonard have been even greater than he was?

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So true. Well put.
A very comfortable non-committal middle class statement perfectly suited to the suburban sunday lunchtime boozer 1/2 a pint of bitter brigade
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Old 06-05-2012, 07:43 PM   #62
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Default Re: Could Sugar Ray Leonard have been even greater than he was?

His career was pretty hard to top as it was.. But of course, the elimination of outside ring habits, along with more fluent activity is something that could help most men's career. I think it would have done him great justice to have beaten Donald Curry around 1985 or 86, before Lloyd Honeyghan got to him. Certainly would have been a good notch on his belt, or at least perception wise.
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Old 06-06-2012, 04:32 AM   #63
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Default Re: Could Sugar Ray Leonard have been even greater than he was?

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BIG WRONG! BIG TIME!

Obviously you're not from my generation, there's not one of the fab 4 i don't respect & admire above the call of duty. It's all down too who you wanted too have some personal identification with when in your teenage/formative years & yer nailed yer colours to the mast for better or worse, good times or bad.....LOYALTY too the end or it's a case of betrayal in my sense than one.........anything else qualifies you as MAN UTD supporter
Duran is lucky to have fans such as yourself.

Believe me, I'm not vanilla. I have my heroes too, but for me the sport of boxing is greater than any one guy. I appreciate your point of view, though.
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Old 06-06-2012, 04:34 AM   #64
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Default Re: Could Sugar Ray Leonard have been even greater than he was?

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A very comfortable non-committal middle class statement perfectly suited to the suburban sunday lunchtime boozer 1/2 a pint of bitter brigade
Now you go too far. Never, ever question my love of this sport.
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Old 06-06-2012, 05:17 AM   #65
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Default Re: Could Sugar Ray Leonard have been even greater than he was?

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Now you go too far. Never, ever question my love of this sport.


Out of the fab 4 it's a close run thing between Marvin/Tommy & Roberto with Ray being followed more by yer boxing casual. We all knew who Sugar Ray was because we all followed him during the Montreal Olympics so he was already a global brand as such. But Duran was the villian personified & a full-on REBEL whilst Mighty Marvin was the doughty blue coller honest grafter & Tommy could only be viewed as down right dangerous & sinister whilst Ray persued & employed the image of a winking bumboy

Most of my mates were either Hagler or Hearns & very few where big Leonard fans as SRL was just too main stream for our liking but i suppose thats just a true reflection of our anti-social intentions
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Old 06-06-2012, 06:03 AM   #66
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Default Re: Could Sugar Ray Leonard have been even greater than he was?

When is your site going to be back up? Any idea?
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Old 06-06-2012, 07:47 PM   #67
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Default Re: Could Sugar Ray Leonard have been even greater than he was?

Sugar Ray Leonard was a media darling in his prime kind of like Oscar Delahoya was. By that i would say no he couldnt be greater than he was because he was great but the media made elevated his achievements even more. Which means he already is greater than he really was.

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Old 06-07-2012, 12:17 AM   #68
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Default Re: Could Sugar Ray Leonard have been even greater than he was?

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Ray picked his matches, though not out of fear. He and his management fought the biggest names for the most money and the most prestige, period. He was fighting only for his place in history after Hearns#1 in 1981, as he didn't need any more money.

Hence why neither he nor any other big name fought McCallum, a terrific fighter who was avoided by all except for an older Donald Curry.

Might Leonard have picked up another loss in the 1980s had he not stopped his career twice? Possibly. I doubt he would have lost more than once, if even once, because he didn't need to fight EVERY top guy who came along, just the best of the best, so he was usually at a relative peak for each fight (Bruce Finch being an exception). I doubt Ray would have fought ALL or even half of the following: Curry, Starling, McCrory, Honeyghen, McCallum, Nunn, Mugabi, Davey Moore, Benitez rematch. Head to head, he's better than all these guys anyway, but Nunn would be the tough one due to his speed, his height advantage, and his youth. Leonard said as much on the air once. They would have fought each other first, and Ray would have fought the top two or three guys after.

On the other hand, he probably never would have fought and thus lost to two clearly inferior fighters, Norris and Camacho, had he had his fill of boxing in the 1980s. And he would have had a field day with the slower, lazy James Toney.
Norris inferior? How do u set the record for defences in your own weight class and still be inferior? Terry clearly destroyed Leonard! Leonard was bewitched, bothered N bewildered!

SPEED was the determining factor! While Leonard looked for opening that weren't there (cuz Terry never stood in front of him), TN PITCHED N painted!

Terry was a ghost that nite giving Sugar Ray the illusion that he was in front of him when he really wasnt!

Sugar had never faced anyone with Terry's speed and couldnt adapt to so fast an opponent.

as for Camacho, I dont believe Hector shouldve ever been a license to box after his brutal defeat to Chavez 5 yrs earlier. it was horrific. But box he did and he totaly threw Ray off his game. Alot of fans didnt like that but that's too bad. Hector beat him fair N square. A lot of people can't handle that fact & tryy to bad mouth Hector cuz he knocked Ray out.

Ray tried but it wasnt enough becuz hector had too much speed. So much speed that Ray had to back up just to see what the hell Hector was doing to him! It was gr8!

Ray wouldve whipped Starling no sweat. after all this WAS Sugar Ray Leonard. McCrory was a sitting target and wouldnt last five w Sugar's merciless body raping. Shots to the ribs would cave him in.

Honeyghan wouldve sent Sugar to the hospital (too much naked power in Sir Lloyd's fists)

leonard also wouldve falen prey to Sir Micheal Nunn's slippery yet lethal style. Again, too slick, too quick and wouldve made Sugar VERY sick

mcCallum? I giave Sugar a decent chance but this fight would be demanding.

Benitez-Leonard rematch wouldnt be sellable at worthwhile prices at this stage. You know, been there, done that.

Sugar would struggle with Moore. I would keep my fingers crossed on this one

The Mugabi that lost to Hagler was only 26 and with too much TNT hiding behind those gloves. The first stray punch that catches Sugar cleanly gets him in trouble. Mugabi goes after him but Sugar lasts a few more rounds. he just might make the final bell only to lose on points.
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Old 06-07-2012, 05:10 AM   #69
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Default Re: Could Sugar Ray Leonard have been even greater than he was?

Actually,

The boys in the Television Boxing Business thought Howard Davis Jr. was going to
be a 'bigger star'.

As CBS-Sports signed Howard to a long-term exclusive contract.
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Old 06-07-2012, 07:10 AM   #70
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Default Re: Could Sugar Ray Leonard have been even greater than he was?

I've grown 2 appreciate duranimal's poetic style of putting things and reflecting and informing on his time .
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Old 06-08-2012, 07:49 AM   #71
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Default Re: Could Sugar Ray Leonard have been even greater than he was?

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... when he retired he was just entering his own physical prime and had years to go ... we simply never got to see the best Ray Leonard ...
This is so debatable, how can you say it with such authority as if it's an obvious fact? It sure isn't that at all.

Leonard won the Olympic gold in 1976 and by 1979 was probably the best welter in the world, with superb performances already behind him. The Ranzany and Price victories being especially dominating and evidencing excellent power.

Then he beat Benitez in 1979, destroyed Davey Green in early 1980, then had the first two Duran bouts that year where he grew bigger and better by Duran #2; then beat Bonds, Kalule, and Hearns #1 in 1981, took on and easily beat Bruce Finch (the FIRST "easy" match-up in years for Ray) in early 1982 . . . I imagine that most observers would say we surely saw the best Sugar Ray THEN. How many all-time greats did he need to face and beat for you to agree? The rest of the contenders from the mid-1980s weren't as good as the group named above, anyway.

You think a mid-1982-and-later Leonard would have been better than the top contender and then champ Leonard in the four years from 1979-82? I sure doubt it.

Do you think, as future opponents, that the 1983 Duran who fought Hagler was half the fighter who fought Leonard in 1980? Or that the now-beaten Hearns and Benitez were as good as they were when BOTH were undefeated when they met Leonard in 1979 and 1981, respectively? I don't think so.
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Old 06-08-2012, 08:00 AM   #72
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Default Re: Could Sugar Ray Leonard have been even greater than he was?

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NO chance! Leonard could have fought anytime from 83 onwards but opted to stay safe & wait! Kalule pounded on him enough for Ray to know his Sugar $$$ brand would be extinguished if he'd dared too risk his neck against any of the prime bigger boys & hand picked journeyman Kevin Howard removed all doubt in Leonards mind that he could cut the mustard at the higher weights.hence Leonard could'nt quit the sport quick enough straight after the Howard debacle & said he did'nt want to embarrass himself!

He was crafty enough just too haunt ringside at all the major fights giving winks & hints about a comeback but he never had ant intention of doing so & especially not against an opponant who was still dangerous & uncomplient by way of the demands that Leonard became infamous for when he did decide the time was right to challange an older & slower Hagle! Shot Hearns! 37yr old Fatboy Duran! Weighed crippled titleist in lalonde for 2 joke title's.

What a load of crap that Leonard could have been greater than he was! The one time Leonard went in with a live opponant he got thrashed & decked twice for good measure by Norris! No way Leonard wins anytitle from 83 onwards & no one knew that more than Leonard or he would have come back as he craved the attention & limelight that was now being reflected onto others but he was'nt going to risk his $$$ brand & Howard put the fear up him big time & he could'nt flee the scene fast enough & that tells you everything about his chances of future glory & leonard should know!.
This is about the most ignorant and fact-devoid post I've seen on this site, which is saying something.
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Old 06-08-2012, 08:07 AM   #73
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Default Re: Could Sugar Ray Leonard have been even greater than he was?

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In the second fight, two of the judges had Leonard up by 2, and one had him up by 1, and his fans make it seem like he pitched a shutout.
That judging in fight #2 was ridiculously biased. Anybody who gave Duran ANY round other than the one where Leonard fell in the corner (not from a punch, but it might have been Duran's round anyway, I believe it was the 5th rd), is blind. Hell, every time Duran got Leonard against the ropes, it was LEONARD who won the exchanges-- very different from the first fight.

WATCH the fight! Duran won no more than one round. Leonard was very sharp, and Duran was not sharp at all. His weight issues for that fight, etc., are already well known.

I've seen the fight numerous times including live that night and then the ABC (also live call) of a couple of weeks later, and nobody THEN acted like Duran won more than one round-- except for the judges. The fight was VERY one-sided . . . hence one of the most dominating ways to win a fight occurred: making the other guy quit. The quitter isn't protesting a referee stoppage but instead prefers to end the bout and lose.
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Old 06-08-2012, 08:24 AM   #74
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Default Re: Could Sugar Ray Leonard have been even greater than he was?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by fists of fury
...Always found it a bit strange that one must either be a Hearns fan, a Leonard fan, a Hagler fan or a Duran fan...but rarely a fan of more than one of these guys.

What happened to being a boxing fan? If you are, then surely one must also be a fan of all these guys? They were all brilliant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by A.J.
So true. Well put.

Originally Posted by duranimal
A very comfortable non-committal middle class statement perfectly suited to the suburban sunday lunchtime boozer 1/2 a pint of bitter brigade

Originally Posted by duranimal
BIG WRONG! BIG TIME!

Obviously you're not from my generation, there's not one of the fab 4 i don't respect & admire above the call of duty. It's all down too who you wanted too have some personal identification with when in your teenage/formative years & yer nailed yer colours to the mast for better or worse, good times or bad.....LOYALTY too the end or it's a case of betrayal in my sense than one.........anything else qualifies you as MAN UTD supporter
Another ignorant post, Duranimal. You've made several in this thread alone knocking the original post by another guy who said, essentially, why must a fan dislike any of the great fighters when a boxing fan can like all of them. I agreed with him.

You've bitched in another post that "your generation" is somehow different in being, apparently, weird losers who must hate other fighters to love one fighter, because you had man-love for that one fighter in your teen years. Who the hell decides in their teen years who their favorite fighters are and then has no more growth from that? You needed to identify with a freaking boxer as a teen to help you grow up? You sound like a teenie-bopper groupie for what's-his-name Bieber. And you have ZERO knowledge of what generation anybody is from based on their liking several boxers rather than hating most of them to elevate one.

You need to bring up one's social class here?? You sound really f__ked up to me. And you have great trouble spelling a word as simple as "to".

I am quite sure I'm a more knowledgeable boxing fan than you, and a bigger one, and the fact that most of us would appreciate all of the fab four fighters while you need to hate three of them to feel like an even bigger Duran fan, tells all anybody needs to know about you. You think like a gang member.

And, consistently, it's only the Duran fans who go from web site to web site hating all other Duran opponents in order to show their undying love for Duran. I don't think I've ever seen a Hearns, Leonard, or Hagler fan need to knock Duran or any of the others, but some Duran fans seem psychotic.

Last edited by A.J.; 06-08-2012 at 08:45 AM.
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Old 06-08-2012, 08:58 AM   #75
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Default Re: Could Sugar Ray Leonard have been even greater than he was?

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Norris inferior? How do u set the record for defences in your own weight class and still be inferior? Terry clearly destroyed Leonard! Leonard was bewitched, bothered N bewildered!

SPEED was the determining factor! While Leonard looked for opening that weren't there (cuz Terry never stood in front of him), TN PITCHED N painted!

Terry was a ghost that nite giving Sugar Ray the illusion that he was in front of him when he really wasnt!

Sugar had never faced anyone with Terry's speed and couldnt adapt to so fast an opponent.

as for Camacho, I dont believe Hector shouldve ever been a license to box after his brutal defeat to Chavez 5 yrs earlier. it was horrific. But box he did and he totaly threw Ray off his game. Alot of fans didnt like that but that's too bad. Hector beat him fair N square. A lot of people can't handle that fact & tryy to bad mouth Hector cuz he knocked Ray out.

Ray tried but it wasnt enough becuz hector had too much speed. So much speed that Ray had to back up just to see what the hell Hector was doing to him! It was gr8!

Ray wouldve whipped Starling no sweat. after all this WAS Sugar Ray Leonard. McCrory was a sitting target and wouldnt last five w Sugar's merciless body raping. Shots to the ribs would cave him in.

Honeyghan wouldve sent Sugar to the hospital (too much naked power in Sir Lloyd's fists)

leonard also wouldve falen prey to Sir Micheal Nunn's slippery yet lethal style. Again, too slick, too quick and wouldve made Sugar VERY sick

mcCallum? I giave Sugar a decent chance but this fight would be demanding.

Benitez-Leonard rematch wouldnt be sellable at worthwhile prices at this stage. You know, been there, done that.

Sugar would struggle with Moore. I would keep my fingers crossed on this one

The Mugabi that lost to Hagler was only 26 and with too much TNT hiding behind those gloves. The first stray punch that catches Sugar cleanly gets him in trouble. Mugabi goes after him but Sugar lasts a few more rounds. he just might make the final bell only to lose on points.
Hey, redrooster--

Norris and Camacho were VERY inferior to a prime Leonard. I was referring to the fact that Ray was OLD when he fought them, otherwise their inferiority vs. him in his prime would be obvious. They were clearly better than Ray in the years that the actual Leonard fights took place. But best Ray vs. best Terry and best Hector? Ray wins easily over both. Neither was in his class careerwise.

That you have Leonard struggling with Davey Moore is hard to believe. I liked Moore, but Hearns and Starling would have whipped him, and Curry beat him in the 1980 US Olympic Trials. Moore was unseasoned, and an old Duran had his way with Davey. Leonard would have killed Moore.

Mugabi? Not nearly the fighter a prime Leonard was. Yeah, I suppose he makes it tough for Leonard if they fought in 1986, but not prime to prime.

Honeyghan gets destroyed by a prime Leonard, is this even debatable? Starling kicked the crap out of Lloyd, as did Breland.

My entire earlier post was assuming Ray is still close to prime when he takes on these guys, as in, say, 1982-84 and with no eye injury; NOT hanging around until 1989 or 1990.
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