71 Ali vs Marciano

[he grant]

Interesting fight .. in his previous bout Ali look like crap against Bonavena .. while Joe matches up against Ali better than Rocky I can see Rocky being very tough for that Ali unless Ali cut him up which would always be a real possibility as Rocky was a bleeder ..

[Kalasinn]

Originally Posted by PetethePrince

Damn ESB ate up my reply. Good point. I'll try to summarize it. Frazier's speed advantage would allow him to operate better from a mid-range. His attributes and style are a lot more explosive with that leaping left hook which countered Ali's right hand to great effect. I also forgot to mention that Frazier has an inch in height and a 5 inch reach advantage. Basically this fight is purely an inside fight for Marciano. Frazier's pressure pushed Ali back but his left hand that had a respectable amount of success from a mid range also helped push Ali back toward the ropes.

There's another aspect I forgot to analyze. Frazier's bob & weave style not only enables him to provide a quicker speed of pressure, but it also allows for Frazier to cut of the ring better than Marciano. Marciano's crouch is a much more defensively rooted stance. Marciano was said to feint with his feet and hands. The crouch puts a fighter off the plane of attack and allows them to get in position to attack on an angle. But I tend to think it may have limitations when it comes to cutting of the ring. Marciano's crouch puts Marciano's feet more apart and at an angle. Frazier is a lot more forward and centered. His stance is not quite as wide which helps for mobility. He relies far more on dipping up and down while pressing forward, rather than shifting off the line of attack like Marciano does. This factor makes me reconsider Marciano's odds. Perhaps his chances are more around 30-40% percent than 50/50.

I'm guess you use Chrome like me? If so I understand your pain. One thing Firefox was better for, is saving lost forum posts so they're still there when you press the back button. Anyway, another excellent post Pete, I think your superbly detailed knowledge you've displayed on Marciano & Frazier in this thread in on-par with anyone. Despite Ali being green in '63, I think perhaps the Doug Jones fight at least proves that Rocky isn't physically too small to give Ali stylistic nightmares with his intense grinding pressure.

[Bummy Davis]

Marciano would be a very tough fight for Ali, you can compare him to Frazier in 3 aspects

1) Marciano could not be psyched out, his mindset and will to win were rock solid
2) Heart Marciano had it and so did Frazier
3)Stamina both men had an incredible amount but Frazier peaked in FOTC and never hit that peak again

In the areas that Marciano has the edge are he had a better defense than Frazier, subtle and more of a rhythm fighters nightmare and was hard to time also had many versions of the hook, right hand, jab and Suzie-q, the chopper right vs Moore, Marciano was a better rhythm breaker

Marciano not only had a great left hook that he doubled up on and countered well with he also had one of the best single punch right hands in the heavyweight division...Frazier had the hook and was really a one armed fighter

This fight very interesting Marciano very strong from 10 to 15 or 7-12...I think Marciano and are Louis 2 men I would favor over a prime Ali but nothing is certain with the top 3 Louis-Marciano-Ali

[ETM]

Rocky was very strong and he had a certain rythem that nobody he fought ever quite figured out. Though he never faced a jab like that from a heavyweight that big and fast.

Ali did come out against Frazier in `71 very sharp. He was fast and he was punching hard. He hit Joe with some nasty punches in the first 3 or 4 rounds. I cant help but think if Ali hit Marciano with those same types of punches that Rocky would be cut up pretty bad.

Could he be able to deal with Ali with blood streaming down his face? Rocky was able to overcome that in some of his other fights but never against anyone like Ali.

Id be fairly confident Ali wins a decision or gets a TKO on cuts.

[groove]

marciano would have a better chance against 71 version that 65-67 version. that version always gave the first round away by dancing and weighing up his opponent, gaining his range etc. he was so confident in his ability that he could take his time as he had no stamina issues in later rounds. comeback ali always started the fight more in a rush. i think he had stamina issues at the back at his mind - thinking he wanted to finish the fight before he started to tire. bonavena he struggled after the early rounds. same thing happened in FOTC. peak 60s ali is a total different challange for any ATG.

[Ali_]

I have read over the posts here and seen the reasoning used to rationally give Rocco Francis Marchegiano a win over Muhammad Ali(71) or a good competitive fight. Without exploiting purple prose and paragraphs, allow me to forward the correct answer to the question posed in the title thread.

71 Ali vs Marciano.

Ali. Ali. Ali. Without any shadow of any doubt. Its a clinic. Ali goes home prettier than before the bell rings. The weigh-in alone would draw sympathy, Marciano loses, and his fans take it graciously.

(onward)

Ali (70).
Ali (69,68 ) .... et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Its interesting to point out that the Marciano in affect here is apparently any Marciano, whereas the Ali in affect here is the 71 Ali. 71 Ali? 71 Ali? Fight of the Century Ali? As pugilist enthusiast a certain amount of speculation is healthy and encouraged, but again as pugilist enthusiast a certain amount of speculation or 'handing losses or victories over to fighters with your mouth' is ludicrous. In the case of a Rocky Marciano vs Muhammad Ali with a win for Rocco is ludicrous.

Essentially, could Rocky Marciano have taken Fraziers place on March 8, 1971, at Madison Square Garden in New York City, New York across the ring from Ali and fought equal to or better than the Frazier fought? Could Marciano have taken the blows that Frazier took in that fight and still avoided getting knocked down and out or won (Marciano would have took far worst)? Could Marciano have dished out the same mid fight late fight work-rate against an Ali that required -above all that- a knockdown (a knockdown in the early 15th that kept Ali down on his back for literally all of one second -he gets up and stabilized before the ref can approach him) to even win the fight?


The answer to all three of those questions is a flat no. The conditioning required by both fighters specifically in that fight was above and beyond what most fighters achieve in their boxing careers. Show me one war like that one and Ill tip you my hat sir.

Without taking anything from an all time great like Rocky Marciano, he only gets a chance against Ali with these people who are dazzled by his '0' and nothing more. Jack Dempsey has a greater chance against Ali than Marciano ever had, but he is constantly brushed over in these speculations because of his eight losses. Dempsey is a better boxer in the important aspects than Marciano, he had the more powerful punch, was faster and tougher. His chin is 'suspect' -laughably so- by speculators only because of his eight losses, but these are people who are only dazzled by the Marciano's '0'.

Rocky Marciano was 5' 10 1/4" and 184-185 pounds at his best in his prime. This is small. With a reach of 67” (5 inches shorter than Floyd Mayweather Jr)

Muhammad Ali is 6'3 and 210+lbs with a reach of 80 -Fraziers was 73-.

Rocky fights from underneath and is noted has having bad accuracy.
Ali has perfect accuracy and rains and pours punches from above, outside and is not out muscled by the biggest.


This isn't a contest. Ali wins easily no matter where, early, late, KO etc..

[RockyJim]

It has been said that Rocky Marciano had no business being the champ...started late...short arms...thick legs...5'11...under 200 lbs...it's also been said that Marciano cannot be measured by merely what we can see...

[SuzieQ49]

Without taking anything from an all time great like Rocky Marciano, he only gets a chance against Ali with these people who are dazzled by his '0' and nothing more. Jack Dempsey has a greater chance against Ali than Marciano ever had, but he is constantly brushed over in these speculations because of his eight losses. Dempsey is a better boxer in the important aspects than Marciano, he had the more powerful punch, was faster and tougher. His chin is 'suspect' -laughably so- by speculators only because of his eight losses, but these are people who are only dazzled by the Marciano's '0'.

Marciano was better than Dempsey

[SuzieQ49]

Gives us a glimpse of what the two fighters in the ring look like


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TekIL5Gd_aE[/ame]

[Ali_]

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

Marciano was better than Dempsey

Seeing as how I have never heard or read anyone with knowledge of boxing claim such a thing..

I respectfully but aggressively demand that you defend your assertion.

[Seamus]

Ali of 71 would be about 50% better than anyone Marciano ever beat. A giant stretch for him.

[Stevie G]

Ali wins. Either on cuts or decision. Rocky would give him all the pressure he could handle,but Muhammad holds a big physical advantage,Marciano would be over twenty pounds lighter than the FOTC Frazier,and would be faster than anyone Marciano ever met.

[Ali_]

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

Gives us a glimpse of what the two fighters in the ring look like


[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

One of the finest rig ups ever cast to defend a smitten fan-base.
This Rocky is much bigger (and understandable so he hadn't boxed in ages) than his effective size was. Ali wasn't even interested here.

The guys who did this rig up were the same guys who projected Rocky Marciano as beating Jack Dempsey and Jim Jefferies (of all people) beating Muhammad Ali. Pure lunacy.

If you want to look at the tape though for what it is as it is. Its a joke. Rocky is apparently smaller -even with all the weight on him here- than Joe Frazier. Marciano doesn't have any mobility at all. Ali looks like he is trying not to hit him at all. Everytime Marciano is a wades in Ali sits stuff under his guard that -if any real power is applied- would raise him off his feet or break something. In the paint Rocky cant come forward unless Ali lets him and only after sending punches right down Rockys lane.
He cant hold Ali against the ropes cause he has no presence and doesn't compare in strength.

This video doesn't advocate a win for Marciano at all. Unless you are italian, and love the Rocky movies (I,II,III,IV and V).

[bonzo7580]

ali by a unanimous decision .

[SuzieQ49]

Why should Rocky be rated over Dempsey?


1. Rocky clearly beat better competition

2. Rocky doesn't have near prime losses KO 1 to Flynn or L 4 to Willie Meehan on his resume

3. Rocky defended his title against all # 1 or # 2 rated contenders, while Dempsey never fought the 2 best contenders of his whole era(tunney, wills)



So Rocky accomplished more, he was much more proven against the best of his era, he was the better champion, he had less bad losses on his resume, and bigger wins on his resume.