71 Ali vs Marciano

[fists of fury]

Originally Posted by Hands of Iron

Styles, Talent and Ability determine which fighters I like. Not to say Marciano doesn't have fans based on those traits alone.

...Being a bit harsh on Rocky and his fans.
I consider myself a big Marciano fan, and it's only partly got to do his actual ability. I like fighters based on what I feel inside when I watch them fight. I need to be moved by them, somehow. They don't even have to be that good of a fighter.
Probably why I'm such a big Bert Cooper fan.

Marciano had grit, heart and determination. He maximised his potential to the fullest. I think those are traits that every fight fan can appreciate.

[Stevie G]

Originally Posted by fists of fury

...Being a bit harsh on Rocky and his fans.
I consider myself a big Marciano fan, and it's only partly got to do his actual ability. I like fighters based on what I feel inside when I watch them fight. I need to be moved by them, somehow. They don't even have to be that good of a fighter.
Probably why I'm such a big Bert Cooper fan.

Marciano had grit, heart and determination. He maximised his potential to the fullest. I think those are traits that every fight fan can appreciate.

Both Ali and Marciano had grit,heart and determination in abundance.

[he grant]

Originally Posted by redrooster

The Rock, tho much smaller would be too relentless. He would take most of Ali's blows on the gloves N elbowz. The rest he would duck under. The Rock's size disadvantage would actually be an advantage!

In addition, the Rock would not fear Ali's flurries

PLUS,, Ali does not use body blows!

PLUS,, has more stamina & hitz harder!

Marciano's competition cannot match Ali's but nevertheless, poundz N pummelz his way to a UD.

So Rocky, now a defensive master, would avoid Ali's rapier jab maximized by it's far superior speed and 13' reach advantage and at the same time his tissue paper skin would magically hold up as well ? ... what a funny thread ... can't anyone say that a prime Marciano would put up a better, decent and competitive fight against a rusty Ali but still likely lose based on over whelming disadvantages in speed, size and style against an equally tough and determined warrior ?

[PowerPuncher]

Originally Posted by Ali_

All the names you mentioned were shot fighters, and this isn't simply assertion. Its known. Marciano fights any of them 10-5 years prior he gets beat badly.

I've heard that quote where Ali talks about Marciano, out of respect he puts down Frazier to hold Marciano up simply because of old-timey respect.
All jokes aside, Marciano cant come close to Frazier. Lets not even head in that direction.

No they weren't and you either haven't studied it to say so or are biased

Walcott - past his absolute best - I'd say so, but coming off his best wins and he said he had more time to train and better food to eat so was stronger at this time

Charles - past his best, on a very good run, probably deserved to win the HW title back against Walcott, lost 2 controversial decisions (1 blatant robbery) coming into the Marciano fight and had many top wins

Moore - LHW champ, LHW champ for years more, had a great run coming into the fight beating the best HW contenders around

Louis - arguably shot, well past his best but on a 10-12 fight winning run

Now you're comparing them shot and not the following??

Willard - 3 years inactive, 37years old

Miske - dying from Brites disease

Corbett - had what 1 win in 6years and was what 37?

Peter Jackson - an alcoholic dying for cirrhosis of the liver

Fitz - Old, small and innactive for 2 years

So they had less form coming in than Marciano's opponents and none of them were nearly as good as Marciano's opponents in the first place either. Not to mention Marciano cleaned out his era in a much deeper division, Dempsey and JEffries avoided numerous contenders in their division including their number 1 contenders. Marciano was the first white HW champion to not draw the colour line and duck the best black men of his day

Originally Posted by ETM

Its an interesting comparison. Dempsey or Marciano?

I think its fair to say that Marciano was the better champion and probably the greater heavyweight. I dont know if he was the better fighter at his peak though.

Id give Rocky the edge in conditioning and cutting the ring and applying constant pressure even into the mid and late rounds. Rocky fought the more Skillful contenders in Moore, Charles etc.

I dont agree that Marciano hit harder than Jack Dempsey though. Jack Dempsey fought some big boys. Yeah they were Oafs but in the heavyweight division there is something to be said for size and power. Brute strength cant be ignored. Guys like Firpo and Willard, Morris, Fulton were big powerful heavies and Dempsey hurt all of them. Jack Dempsey hurt everyone he ever hit.

I think Dempsey was the better puncher.

I wouldn't judge a boxer simply on power and I wouldn't judge his power/performance simply on the size of his opponents. Firpo was a very basic weight lifter turned boxer, Willard a 37yo basic strong man, Morris wasn't very good, Fulton was decent but could get ko'd by a strong wind. A big strong man that is easy to hit can be quite easy to knock out because you land you're very biggest punch on them, a skilled man is harder to land a big punch on. Rocky's KO's for me were generally more brutal and with 1 punch, if you look at the Walcott, Layne, Louis, Moore

Anyway power aside, Marciano was a better puncher with shorter better timed punches, better defence, better counter puncher, better bodypunching, very efficient and underrated speed. His efficient style is what let's him carry his power throughout the fight, his feinting put's boxers on edge and he's always poised to land a big punch

[fists of fury]

Originally Posted by Stevie G

Both Ali and Marciano had grit,heart and determination in abundance.

Indeed.

[Hands of Iron]

Originally Posted by fists of fury

...Being a bit harsh on Rocky and his fans.
I consider myself a big Marciano fan, and it's only partly got to do his actual ability. I like fighters based on what I feel inside when I watch them fight. I need to be moved by them, somehow. They don't even have to be that good of a fighter.
Probably why I'm such a big Bert Cooper fan.

Marciano had grit, heart and determination. He maximised his potential to the fullest. I think those are traits that every fight fan can appreciate.

Check post #12

[redrooster]

Originally Posted by he grant

So Rocky, now a defensive master, would avoid Ali's rapier jab maximized by it's far superior speed and 13' reach advantage and at the same time his tissue paper skin would magically hold up as well ? ... what a funny thread ... can't anyone say that a prime Marciano would put up a better, decent and competitive fight against a rusty Ali but still likely lose based on over whelming disadvantages in speed, size and style against an equally tough and determined warrior ?

from what I have seen the Rock did not cut often so his think skin cannot properly be verified.

Ali's Jabz would do little to slow the Rock. Ali's especially!

Ali's speed. I dont know what you mean by Ali's speed, especially since Ali would spend so much time on the ropes. If anyone has ever seen Ali fight, fighting with his back to the ropes seems to be his trademark

The Rock by bruising decision

[fists of fury]

Originally Posted by Hands of Iron

Check post #12

Sorry bud. Must have missed it somehow.

[RockyJim]

If it was prime Marciano in the ring with prime Ali instead of George Chuvalo in 1966...and the way Ali fought Chuvalo...you don't think that The Rock would given Ali all he could handle? If not...then you're dreaming...

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by RockyJim

If it was prime Marciano in the ring with prime Ali instead of George Chuvalo in 1966...and the way Ali fought Chuvalo...you don't think that The Rock would given Ali all he could handle? If not...then you're dreaming...

I think you might be the one who is dreaming.

[SuzieQ49]

Ali weighed 240lb in that photo and was on his tippy toes. Marciano is 46 years old

[SuzieQ49]

I think a 1966 Muhammad Ali beats Marciano every time...but 1971? That would be a very close fight. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool. Joe Frazier whipped Ali in 71. You think Joe Frazier was in a different class than Marciano?

[he grant]

Originally Posted by redrooster

from what I have seen the Rock did not cut often so his think skin cannot properly be verified.

Ali's Jabz would do little to slow the Rock. Ali's especially!

Ali's speed. I dont know what you mean by Ali's speed, especially since Ali would spend so much time on the ropes. If anyone has ever seen Ali fight, fighting with his back to the ropes seems to be his trademark

The Rock by bruising decision

Marciano cut seriously against Walcott, Charles twice and Moore ... basically against his top three opponents who boxed and had speed ... I believe Ali falls into this catagory ...

[Stevie G]

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

I think a 1966 Muhammad Ali beats Marciano every time...but 1971? That would be a very close fight. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool. Joe Frazier whipped Ali in 71. You think Joe Frazier was in a different class than Marciano?

Not in a different class,but Joe was twenty pounds heavier than Rocky at their peak fighting weights. This would have been a signifigant factor in a fight with Muhammad.

[PetethePrince]

Originally Posted by Kalasinn

I'm guess you use Chrome like me? If so I understand your pain. One thing Firefox was better for, is saving lost forum posts so they're still there when you press the back button. Anyway, another excellent post Pete, I think your superbly detailed knowledge you've displayed on Marciano & Frazier in this thread in on-par with anyone. Despite Ali being green in '63, I think perhaps the Doug Jones fight at least proves that Rocky isn't physically too small to give Ali stylistic nightmares with his intense grinding pressure.

Thanks Kal. I actually use Firefox. Back button doesn't always save me unfortunately. I think sometimes I unintentionally hit refresh in the middle of slamming keys or something. I don't know.

The only thing irritating me in the thread are TKO and cut stoppage predictions. Marciano was not that bad a bleeder. He was no Wepner. Not even Quarry when it came to cuts. That split nose against Charles was a fluke caused by an elbow. He was never close to being stopped on cuts from punches. I have no problem saying Ali might be a slight favorite with perhaps 60-70% odds of winning. But he's not stopping the Rock.