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View Poll Results: 71 Ali vs Marciano
71 Ali 27 61.36%
Marciano 17 38.64%
Voters: 44. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-01-2012, 04:15 PM   #61
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Default Re: 71 Ali vs Marciano

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Originally Posted by PetethePrince View Post
Thanks Kal. I actually use Firefox. Back button doesn't always save me unfortunately. I think sometimes I unintentionally hit refresh in the middle of slamming keys or something. I don't know.

The only thing irritating me in the thread are TKO and cut stoppage predictions. Marciano was not that bad a bleeder. He was no Wepner. Not even Quarry when it came to cuts. That split nose against Charles was a fluke caused by an elbow. He was never close to being stopped on cuts from punches. I have no problem saying Ali might be a slight favorite with perhaps 60-70% odds of winning. But he's not stopping the Rock.
Good points, I think with Ali's (lack of) power & Rocky's great chin, Marciano would have to be exhausted to get stopped by him, & as we all know, The Rock just kept on going, on & on like an Ariston.
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Old 06-01-2012, 04:16 PM   #62
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Default Re: 71 Ali vs Marciano

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Originally Posted by he grant View Post
Marciano cut seriously against Walcott, Charles twice and Moore ... basically against his top three opponents who boxed and had speed ... I believe Ali falls into this catagory ...
Seriously? The second Charles was an elbow. He looked fine after the Moore from what I can remember.
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Old 06-01-2012, 04:38 PM   #63
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Default Re: 71 Ali vs Marciano

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
You think Joe Frazier was in a different class than Marciano?
1971 Frazier head to head versus any version of Marciano. Yes, a different class.
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Old 06-01-2012, 05:40 PM   #64
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Default Re: 71 Ali vs Marciano

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1971 Frazier head to head versus any version of Marciano. Yes, a different class.

I don't ... I feel they pose different match up challenges to different opponents but head to head it is a very difficult fight to pick ... a real nasty fight ... Joe being twenty pounds heavier and faster but Rocky being the better two handed puncher and his low crouch making him very tough for Joe ... just a crazy fight ...
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Old 06-01-2012, 06:46 PM   #65
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Default Re: 71 Ali vs Marciano

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Originally Posted by he grant View Post
Marciano cut seriously against Walcott, Charles twice and Moore ... basically against his top three opponents who boxed and had speed ... I believe Ali falls into this catagory ...
I dont recall the Rock being cut by Walcott. swelling yes, cuts no

Moore? No cuts there either

Charles? a slice caused by an elbow

Ali never stopped anyone on cuts outside of Cooper, a freak bleeder with a crappy chin
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Old 06-01-2012, 06:48 PM   #66
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Default Re: 71 Ali vs Marciano

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Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
1971 Frazier head to head versus any version of Marciano. Yes, a different class.
How is he a different class? Joe's only real weapon was a left hook. Rocky could hit with either hand so Ali would find Rocky twice as difficult and take twice the pounding. Rock wouldnt take the kind of punishment Joe had to endure tho
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Old 06-01-2012, 08:05 PM   #67
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Default Re: 71 Ali vs Marciano

Prime Marciano would be hell for Ali...
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Old 06-01-2012, 08:07 PM   #68
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Default Re: 71 Ali vs Marciano

Gotta go with Ali here...and I'm a monster Marciano fan. Frazier posed different styilistic problems for Ali than Marciano would have. He was faster on the attack and his best weapon was the one Ali was most susceptible to....a left hook. Rocky's best punch was his right. In order to land it he'd have to get close enough consistently and tag Ali numerous times with it all the while getting past a rapier jab and an 80 inch reach to do it. I just don't see that happening. In the FOTC, Frazier was able to land his jab quite often on Ali. Joe had an underrated jab, when he chose to use it as well as a very good right hand which he put to good use in that fight as well. It was Joe's speed of attack that kept Ali out of his comfort zone and Rocky, although a great pressure fighter himself, didn't apply his pressure as fast as that version of Frazier. Ali would be able to remain in his comfort zone for longer periods of time against Rocky which would enable him to utilize his speed and reach more effectively while conserving his energy better by sparing his legs more. Rocky would have his moments for sure but he wouldn't have enough of those moments I feel to pull out a win. Styles make fights as always in Boxing and I don't think Rocky had the right stylr to beat that version of Ali. Put a good fight? Of course. Win? No.
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Old 06-01-2012, 11:07 PM   #69
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Default Re: 71 Ali vs Marciano

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Anyway power aside, Marciano was a better puncher with shorter better timed punches, better defence, better counter puncher, better bodypunching, very efficient and underrated speed. His efficient style is what let's him carry his power throughout the fight, his feinting put's boxers on edge and he's always poised to land a big punch
Marciano had some advantages. Im not sure that he was the better bodypuncher. I think they both punched to the body pretty damn well. That would be a strength for both guys. Dempsey had better handspeed and put his combinations together better. Jack also had faster feet moving in. He was like a Tiger rushing in. Dempsey was a much faster starter and more explosive early in a fight.

Had Marciano faced the Giants that Dempsey did he may have worn them down and KOd them eventually late in the fight but I doubt he would blast them out the way Dempsey did.

They had different styles both effective.

Last edited by ETM; 06-02-2012 at 01:29 AM.
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Old 06-02-2012, 12:03 AM   #70
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Default Re: 71 Ali vs Marciano

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Gotta go with Ali here...and I'm a monster Marciano fan. Frazier posed different styilistic problems for Ali than Marciano would have. He was faster on the attack and his best weapon was the one Ali was most susceptible to....a left hook. Rocky's best punch was his right. In order to land it he'd have to get close enough consistently and tag Ali numerous times with it all the while getting past a rapier jab and an 80 inch reach to do it. I just don't see that happening. In the FOTC, Frazier was able to land his jab quite often on Ali. Joe had an underrated jab, when he chose to use it as well as a very good right hand which he put to good use in that fight as well. It was Joe's speed of attack that kept Ali out of his comfort zone and Rocky, although a great pressure fighter himself, didn't apply his pressure as fast as that version of Frazier. Ali would be able to remain in his comfort zone for longer periods of time against Rocky which would enable him to utilize his speed and reach more effectively while conserving his energy better by sparing his legs more. Rocky would have his moments for sure but he wouldn't have enough of those moments I feel to pull out a win. Styles make fights as always in Boxing and I don't think Rocky had the right stylr to beat that version of Ali. Put a good fight? Of course. Win? No.
WHAT JAB? Frazier never had a jab!

Also, Joe was a slow starter. Even Cosell & Dunphy acknowledge this
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Old 06-02-2012, 01:27 AM   #71
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Default Re: 71 Ali vs Marciano

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WHAT JAB? Frazier never had a jab!

Also, Joe was a slow starter. Even Cosell & Dunphy acknowledge this
Check out Frazier/Quarry from 1969.

You`ll see Joe Frazier stuffing a quick short jab into Quary face round after round. He couldnt utilize it that much against tall range heavyweight like Ali and Foreman but against guys around his height Joe had a nice jab.
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Old 06-02-2012, 01:33 AM   #72
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Default Re: 71 Ali vs Marciano

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Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
1971 Frazier head to head versus any version of Marciano. Yes, a different class.
That's funny because you're all over the place. Is that part of your mystique? Criticize every fighter in some form or another and knock every conventional praise they receive or something? If I weren't to know any better I would've thought you thought Frazier was over-hyped from the comments you routinely spew, along with half the other HW ATGs of course.
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Old 06-02-2012, 01:43 AM   #73
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Default Re: 71 Ali vs Marciano

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Originally Posted by PetethePrince View Post
That's funny because you're all over the place. Is that part of your mystique? Criticize every fighter in some form or another and knock every conventional praise they receive or something? If I weren't to know any better I would've thought you thought Frazier was over-hyped from the comments you routinely spew, along with half the other HW ATGs of course.
Frazier was bigger, faster, better footwork, and yes, had better stamina. He was more adapted to fighting real heavyweights. The Rock, who I hold in the greatest esteem, was only a heavyweight in an era deficient of such.

My opinions are absolutely consistent. Don't play armchair psychiatrist.
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Old 06-02-2012, 02:09 AM   #74
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Default Re: 71 Ali vs Marciano

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Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
Frazier was bigger, faster, better footwork, and yes, had better stamina. He was more adapted to fighting real heavyweights. The Rock, who I hold in the greatest esteem, was only a heavyweight in an era deficient of such.

My opinions are absolutely consistent. Don't play armchair psychiatrist.
Flat out disagree with this. In fact, I don't see how anyone can reasonably render such a conclusion. You've listed Frazier's supposed advantages, but obviously there is another side to that coin. I believe Frazier is probably a shade ahead of Marciano in terms of H2H against other ATGs (Not necessarily against each other). However, they're in the same realm.

Don't act like you're consistent or at least not confusing as hell with your criticisms of virtually every HW not named Tyson. I'm not going to search your post history just to prove my point. But what comes to mind is comments from you about Frazier not being strong and losing in a weightlifting contest to a pole vaulter. Which makes me wonder, since you listed Frazier being bigger do you think he's even stronger than the Rock? Would Rocky have lost to the pole vaulter? Irrelevant anyway, I'm just musing here. Along with those comments, others have been along the line of Frazier being suspect in durability, and being bounced around by a limited Foreman.

And adaptive to fighting real HWs, but certainly not Super HWs (Even when holding a clear stylistic edge). I can still recall the Wlad-Frazier thread awhile back in which you knocked other posters for rose-colored glasses when it came to Joe. Calling Frazier unathletic, small, chinny, and one handed. I suppose Sam Peters is more adaptive to fighting a Super HW then. Frazier can stick to the HWs.
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Old 06-02-2012, 01:28 PM   #75
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Default Re: 71 Ali vs Marciano

You canīt compare Marciano to Frazier. Frazier took a better punch, had a magnificent left-hook and he weighed 20 punds more than Marciano.
Ali was not well prepared for Frazier on march 8, 1971. Frazier was in his best shape ever.
Ezzard Charles was Marcianos most competetive opponent during his reign. Charles - past his prime and 20 pounds lighter than Ali - gave Marciano all he could handle.
I think Ali would have outboxed Marciano forcing the referee to stop the fight due to a bruised Marciano bleeding from cuts.
I like Marciano - but I donīt rate him high on my list of the best heavyweight champions.
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