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Old 06-03-2012, 03:49 AM   #136
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

[quote=devon;12999758]Some things we need to be able to see to know. For example we cannot know how fast he was in comparison to other fighters as all we know is based on peoples opinions.

Yes and no. I think we can assume that he was faster than Bernard Hopkins and Marvin Hagler simply because NOT ONE PERSON has ever said that Marv or BHop were the fastest fighters they ever saw. Several said that very thing about Greb.

There were people alive when Ray Robinson was fighting who also saw Greb and never wavered in their opinion that Harry was the fastest they'd seen.

That's hard to ignore.
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Old 06-03-2012, 04:21 AM   #137
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

[quote=Surf-Bat;12999823]
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Originally Posted by devon View Post
Some things we need to be able to see to know. For example we cannot know how fast he was in comparison to other fighters as all we know is based on peoples opinions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by devon View Post

Yes and no. I think we can assume that he was faster than Bernard Hopkins and Marvin Hagler simply because NOT ONE PERSON has ever said that Marv or BHop were the fastest fighters they ever saw. Several said that very thing about Greb.

No you can't just assume this. Jesse Owens times were considered lightning back then are now considered slow today. Perceptions change over time. Even though he probably was faster I doubt it was a fast as you think.

There were people alive when Ray Robinson was fighting who also saw Greb and never wavered in their opinion that Harry was the fastest they'd seen.

That's hard to ignore

No. These people like Fleischer? The " they were so much better in my day" syndrome doesn't discriminate. It knows no boundaries, sport, colour, creed and is particularly prevalent in boxing. People just so badly want to believe these magical fairytales are always true when the majority of the human race just talk a whole heap of bullshit.
.
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Old 06-03-2012, 04:23 AM   #138
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

[quote=Surf-Bat;12999681]
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Originally Posted by smitty78 View Post
He throws fast punches from all angles for the whole fight like Pacquiao. Just less power
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Originally Posted by smitty78 View Post

Definitely more unorthodox than Pacquiao. Greb was often called a "freak" due to this radically unorthodox approach. You don't usually hear the same comments made about Manny.

so his movement would want to be a lot better which is really saying something.

Greb was described as "rubber-knee'd". Very bouncy and mobile. By all accounts he had excellent movement. Gene Tunney attested to that after their first fight.


As you see with Pacman this style can be timed by a great counter puncher and made to look ordinary. Just as Tunney did to Greb as Greb's whole defense was based on attack and movement.

Are you implying that Tunney made Greb look "ordinary"?

In patches yes I am implying this.
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Old 06-03-2012, 07:15 AM   #139
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

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Greb's unique style was his own, never to be duplicated again...
It wasn't unique in his own time. Johnny Dundee and Memphis Pal Moore had similar styles.
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Old 06-03-2012, 08:56 AM   #140
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

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It wasn't unique in his own time. Johnny Dundee and Memphis Pal Moore had similar styles.
S, I suppose Johnny Dundee as featherweight came closest to Greb's style, though not as unorthodox in his tactics...But picture a 160 pound strong middleweight as fast as a featherweight and there you have Harry Greb...Ah, Johnny Dundee,a forgotten great from the past !
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Old 06-03-2012, 01:52 PM   #141
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

[quote=smitty78;12999881]No you can't just assume this. Jesse Owens times were considered lightning back then are now considered slow today. Perceptions change over time. Even though he probably was faster I doubt it was a fast as you think.


Watch the available film of all the fighters whom Greb fought. There are several. By ALL accounts Harry was faster than all of them. Jack Dempsey said he was faster than Benny Leonard.



No. These people like Fleischer? The " they were so much better in my day" syndrome doesn't discriminate. It knows no boundaries, sport, colour, creed and is particularly prevalent in boxing. People just so badly want to believe these magical fairytales are always true


I see. So everyone who saw Greb and unanimously testify to his speed are all simply suffering from "things were so much better in my day" syndrome?

Again, watch the films of the fighters Greb jousted with and keep in mind as you do that Greb was considered MUCH faster than all of them.




when the majority of the human race just talk a whole heap of bullshit.


Oh, you mean like this?:

He ducked the Black Irish Les Darcy.

I tend to think Berg and his friends of Israel...


Both quotes attributable to you.

Last edited by Surf-Bat; 06-03-2012 at 02:08 PM.
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Old 06-03-2012, 01:56 PM   #142
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

[quote=smitty78;12999890]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ;12999681
[b]

In patches yes I am implying this.

In very slim patches.

Tunney had his hands full with Greb every time out with the exception of their last fight. And that was more a case of one-eyed Harry getting older and losing a lot of his pep (he had a LOT more mileage on the odometer than Gene).
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Old 06-03-2012, 09:27 PM   #143
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

Only read 2 pages in. I don't tend to get people rating Langford over Greb though, but the TS topic is something I've thought of before. It's an interesting questions.
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Old 06-04-2012, 07:06 AM   #144
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

[quote=Surf-Bat;13002719]
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Originally Posted by smitty78 View Post
No you can't just assume this. Jesse Owens times were considered lightning back then are now considered slow today. Perceptions change over time. Even though he probably was faster I doubt it was a fast as you think.


Watch the available film of all the fighters whom Greb fought. There are several. By ALL accounts Harry was faster than all of them. Jack Dempsey said he was faster than Benny Leonard.



No. These people like Fleischer? The " they were so much better in my day" syndrome doesn't discriminate. It knows no boundaries, sport, colour, creed and is particularly prevalent in boxing. People just so badly want to believe these magical fairytales are always true


I see. So everyone who saw Greb and unanimously testify to his speed are all simply suffering from "things were so much better in my day" syndrome?

Again, watch the films of the fighters Greb jousted with and keep in mind as you do that Greb was considered MUCH faster than all of them.




when the majority of the human race just talk a whole heap of bullshit.


Oh, you mean like this?:

He ducked the Black Irish Les Darcy.

I tend to think Berg and his friends of Israel...


Both quotes attributable to you.

That's right, and they're great ****ing quotes.
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Old 06-04-2012, 08:06 AM   #145
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

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Originally Posted by PetethePrince View Post
Only read 2 pages in. I don't tend to get people rating Langford over Greb though, but the TS topic is something I've thought of before. It's an interesting questions.

I wonder if anyone really has a definitive answer. maybe his incomplete record which had blanks filled in, in recent years (all them ND bouts) offered a different idea about him. beyond that?

even for years after he died he was not seen as the number 1. its only very recent from what i can tell.
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Old 06-07-2012, 11:40 AM   #146
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

I wonder if Greb could sell tickets when up against a no-namer. Maybe his style made for messy fights.

This was all before close-ups and slow-motion replay. There's a lot of fighters that wouldn't be worth watching if it wasn't for that.

Maybe he needed that to be fully appreciated in his time.
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Old 08-03-2014, 02:45 AM   #147
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

I wanted to revive this to see what people think about it.

The question isn't whether Greb belongs at or near the very top in the ATG P4P rankings, or how he might stack up H2H against others in the middle weights ... but rather if anyone can pinpoint when, why and how it was that Greb began to be considered more highly in the last decade than he was 50 or 60 years ago, which seems to be the case.

The answer that makes the most sense to me is geography, particularly the lack of a large number of big fights in New York on his resume. Perhaps he was regarded by the powerful NY/East Coast press as more of a provincial talent who did well but didn't rise to the big time in their eyes because he chose (for whatever reasons) not to have big fights in the mecca of boxing of his time.

They might have viewed him as more of a barnstormer who fought a lot on home turf or friendly confines like Ohio and therefore regarded him as not being enough of a big-timer because of this.

I wonder if they thought, too, that newspaper decisions in his favor might have been less meaningful when he fought in Pittsburgh or in Ohio or in lesser fight towns (in Maryland, Nashville, etc.) where he would have been the bigger name most of the time -- I'm not suggesting those verdicts were biased, but that could have been the perception of some experts of his day.

And in a time with no TV, there may have just been many top writers or pundits of the day who didn't see enough of him to properly judge him as ATG material since he didn't have as many high-profile, big-city marquee fights.

I'd like to know what others think.
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Old 08-03-2014, 05:19 AM   #148
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

I get the idea that Greb's standing fell off somewhat after the end of his career, because circumstances around his fights started to be obscured, and the people who saw him fight started to die. History was very kind to some of his opponents, because they rewrote it.
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Old 08-03-2014, 06:11 AM   #149
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

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I get the idea that Greb's standing fell off somewhat after the end of his career, because circumstances around his fights started to be obscured, and the people who saw him fight started to die. History was very kind to some of his opponents, because they rewrote it.
And to be fair this is the era where Greb is getting rewritten in a historically positive manner. He is for the moment the flavour of the month.
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Old 08-03-2014, 06:29 AM   #150
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And to be fair this is the era where Greb is getting rewritten in a historically positive manner. He is for the moment the flavour of the month.
But lets not forget that history is being rewritten in his favour, based on the very earliest and closest sources. It was when they were deviated from that his star began to fall.
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