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Old 05-31-2012, 04:46 PM   #31
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

I don't think it is strictly the case that Greb was not rated as pound for pound No1 during his career.

The problem is more that his career was forgotten verry quickly once it was over.

One thing that particularly harmed his standing, is the fact that he and his supporters did not live as long as other contemporary fighters and their supporters.
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Old 05-31-2012, 04:52 PM   #32
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

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Originally Posted by Rock0052 View Post
Giving a guy that kind of credit for outlasting a fighter.
This is completely the wrong way to put it, however.

Gans out-boxed and out-generalled Gans. Gans was, at the time, the best boxer and general in the world. One newspaper scored it a shut out. He didn't "outlast" Gans, at all.
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Old 05-31-2012, 04:59 PM   #33
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

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Originally Posted by LittleRed View Post
On the.subject of Greb: I think its impossible, if you're not from America to state the influence New York and the east coast has on American culture. New York is our Mecca the USA answer to London or Paris and as the song goes if you can make it there you can make it anywhere. In the united states pretty much everything west of Philadelphia is considered 'west', even though you haven't actually hit the middle of the country yet.

All the other suspects on a p4p list hit it big in new York. Ali had his tussle with Doug Jones and the fight of the.century. Dempsey had his most.dramatic victory and Louis most important wins all took place in the big apple. Ray Robinson was practically a new York native and Harlem's darling.

Greb never had that. He was disliked in new York and preferred to fight elsewhere. Back before television made this a smaller country the new York papers were essentially the news. If they didn't like you, or worse ignored you you might as well not exist.

so Greb's legend faded. Leonard (who was a new York native) took his place as best non heavyweight of the era. But as for someone who was actually there... Grantland Rice (the guy who coined the phrase it is not whether you win or lose but how you play the game) called Greb once of the greatest offensive forces he had ever seen over a career that spanned 40 odd years, in any sport. So when a bunch of sports writers don't list Greb on a top five list don't assume it means much. The same guys wouldn't list pernell Whittaker either.

Well you got fighters like Langford and Fitz from their own eras were regarded as the best.Duran in more recent times in the 70s. I see what youre saying though NY and boxing was the place to be for a long time.
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Old 05-31-2012, 05:17 PM   #34
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
This is completely the wrong way to put it, however.

Gans out-boxed and out-generalled Gans. Gans was, at the time, the best boxer and general in the world. One newspaper scored it a shut out. He didn't "outlast" Gans, at all.

1) Here's some of the tallies from a post of Senya's I saved from a few years back. It would appear your shutout score is the outlier, not the general consensus. This is where I draw my conclusion that it wasn't until the last third of the fight that Langford pulled away:


Boston Globe - Langford was better from 3rd round on.

Boston Journal - first three rounds Gans', two Langford's, three even, seven Langford's

Pawtucket Evening Times - in six of the 15 rounds Langford easily had the better, the rest were about even.

Associated Press - first three Langford was too cautious, rounds 4-8 they were evenly matched, the rest Langford's.

Baltimore Sun - 1-3 Gans, 4-6 Langford, 7-8 even, 9 Langford, 10 even, 11-15 Langford

NY Sun - 1-3 nothing done by either, 4-5 Gans, 6 Langford, 7-8 even, 9-15 Langford.



2) You again ignore the circumstances that Gans had to deal with that could explain how the younger, bigger, fresher Langford was able to "out general" him. Dave Holly, by newspaper accounts, has beaten both men and shouldn't be forgotten in this equation. Gans turning around the next day (after a train ride back from Philly to Boston) to go 15 with a younger, bigger, and already very good fighter in Langford, a loss isn't surprising. It was surprising at the time only due to how unknown Sam was and if Joe had any inkling that he was more than "just another prospect", I doubt he'd have taken the fight with the deck stacked against him like that.

2 weeks afterwards Langford was getting whipped by Blackburn and a few months later in 1904, 2 fights before getting robbed against Walcott, got outpointed over 10 by none other than Dave Holly.

Holly is still, and has been, the forgotten man in the equation. It's not like Gans fought against a scrub the day before he lost to Langford and it's clear he wasn't close to 100% prepared and ready when he stepped in against Sam.
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Old 05-31-2012, 05:24 PM   #35
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock0052 View Post
1) Here's some of the tallies from a post of Senya's I saved from a few years back. It would appear your shutout score is the outlier, not the general consensus. This is where I draw my conclusion that it wasn't until the last third of the fight that Langford pulled away:


Boston Globe - Langford was better from 3rd round on.

Boston Journal - first three rounds Gans', two Langford's, three even, seven Langford's

Pawtucket Evening Times - in six of the 15 rounds Langford easily had the better, the rest were about even.

Associated Press - first three Langford was too cautious, rounds 4-8 they were evenly matched, the rest Langford's.

Baltimore Sun - 1-3 Gans, 4-6 Langford, 7-8 even, 9 Langford, 10 even, 11-15 Langford

NY Sun - 1-3 nothing done by either, 4-5 Gans, 6 Langford, 7-8 even, 9-15 Langford.
And why do you think this proves he "out-lasted" him?


Quote:
2) You again ignore the circumstances that Gans had to deal with that could explain how the younger, bigger, fresher Langford was able to "out general" him.
In what sense am I "ignoring them"? I'm also aware that Joe Gans appeared to have some sort of minor stomach complaint and/or injury. You seem to want to have an argument with someone about something but you're not sure what...Gans was tired, Gans got totally out-boxed. By a teenager. That is absolutely astonishing. I personally feel that it gives Sam the appearance of having Benitiez like talent at an extremely early age whilst in his early 30's he was knocking out a great HW.

This was my entire point, and still is.
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Old 05-31-2012, 05:29 PM   #36
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

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Originally Posted by bman100 View Post
Well you got fighters like Langford and Fitz from their own eras were regarded as the best.Duran in more recent times in the 70s. I see what youre saying though NY and boxing was the place to be for a long time.
I don't know man, the following quotes point to Duran being underrated in his own time:

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

I think once Floyd & Manny retire, people will in time might place them higher on the ranking list.
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Old 05-31-2012, 05:34 PM   #37
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
And why do you think this proves he "out-lasted" him?



In what sense am I "ignoring them"? I'm also aware that Joe Gans appeared to have some sort of minor stomach complaint and/or injury. You seem to want to have an argument with someone about something but you're not sure what...Gans was tired, Gans got totally out-boxed. By a teenager. That is absolutely astonishing. I personally feel that it gives Sam the appearance of having Benitiez like talent at an extremely early age whilst in his early 30's he was knocking out a great HW.

This was my entire point, and still is.

If my argument wasn't clear enough, let this be it: the win is overrated.

You compared it to someone beating prime Whitaker. Yeah, it's the equivalent of a bigger fighter beating prime Whitaker within 24 hours of Sweet Pea fighting a beltholder (who turned out to be good enough to beat said fighter) and is fatigued. Looks better on paper than what it actually is. Still a hell of an accomplishment, but it's not close to what Benitez did. I've heard some people call it the greatest win of all time. That's why I call it overrated, despite it still being great.
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Old 05-31-2012, 05:38 PM   #38
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

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Originally Posted by Rock0052 View Post
If my argument wasn't clear enough, let this be it: the win is overrated.

You compared it to someone beating prime Whitaker.
Yeah, exactly.

Langford was 17. Gans was the best fighter living. Even if you think the win is overated by me personally, you surely know enough to know it is extraordinary. Gans was turning up to fight for the title, after all, it wasn't like he was rocking up to spar some bum.
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Old 05-31-2012, 05:43 PM   #39
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

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Originally Posted by Diagoras View Post
I don't know man, the following quotes point to Duran being underrated in his own time:

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

I think once Floyd & Manny retire, people will in time might place them higher on the ranking list.
in dejesus 2 and palomino the commentators said he was one of the best p4p fighters ever.

Did they say this about Harry Greb.

Manny is another example, he is from another country and hes said to be the best of this generation.
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Old 05-31-2012, 05:44 PM   #40
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

edit

Last edited by bman100; 05-31-2012 at 05:57 PM.
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Old 05-31-2012, 06:25 PM   #41
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Yeah, exactly.

Langford was 17. Gans was the best fighter living. Even if you think the win is overated by me personally, you surely know enough to know it is extraordinary. Gans was turning up to fight for the title, after all, it wasn't like he was rocking up to spar some bum.
Then how can that win be compared to beating a prime Pernell McGrain with all of these troubles Gains had going into the fight it would surely be quite the opposite, although still a great win nonetheless. Just been reading up on Sam and Gains a bit and I'll be sure to check out Dave Holly as well.
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Old 05-31-2012, 06:35 PM   #42
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

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Originally Posted by Diagoras View Post
I don't know, haven't seen many rank him at # 1, that spot is still usually taken by SRR on most peoples lists.

Anyway P4P is a myth, a consolation prize for little guys who can't hang with the HW's so I don't waste much time over that.

McGrain made a good post explaining his career & losses.

The reason guys like Langford, Fitzsimmons, & Greb are getting rated higher is because we have access to information & footage at our fingertips. I can just google & look up their records, can look up 100 year old news reports of fights online, can look up footage of fights from over 100 years back.

All of this was close to impossible for your average fan even 20 years back because there was no internet, he might have heard from grandpa about Langford or Greb but there was no way to verify things for himself unless he put in serious time and effort. You had to go to some huge library in a big city, get those stacks of newspapers and comb through them to find the news reports of Langford fights, to find fight footage you had to first find the right collector & pay good money. Look at that Langford-Jeanette fight that's up on youtube, that's only become available to the outside world beyond collectors only recently afaik & it's because of the internet, even a hardcore fan 20 years ago would have never found it where as I found out just by typing in their names.

People here are always crying about how Boxing is not accessible to the casual fan because its not on network TV, I say BS. Boxing today is far more accessible than ever for watching, all you have to do is go on youtube type in Boxing & you get literally 1000s of fights, some of them from over a 100 years ago. Imagine getting Fitzsimmons vs Corbett 20 years ago before the internet era.

So now we have access to information, we find out that these guys were fighting from MW to HW or in Langford's case LW to HW. Not only were they giving HW's competitive fights, they were winning sometimes, that is a huge achievement in any era. Consequently peoples estimations of them are going up, at least that's the way it is for me.

As for "technique" & how they would do today, what exactly is the point?

They were fighting under different rules & conditions, why not ask how today's greats would do as bare knuckle fighters?

If there are unlimited rounds then of course you are gonna clinch more & pace yourself, if the gloves are smaller then you hold your hands lower to parry the punches etc. What might make no sense from today's rules made sense then.

And look at the shitty video technology (compared to today) with which they were filmed, that doesn't give you an accurate picture of what their real capabilities were.

It's a bit like this video only in Black & White & far more grainy:

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Finally these guys were often giving up weight to fight the real best Boxers around (the HW's) & finding success. You can wave that pound for pound trinket all you want but it really doesn't mean much in the real world, just a made up term for smaller guys.

The only thing I have against Greb is that he doesn't have a lot of finishes & finishing fights is important to me. But he was often giving up weight & fighting bigger guys, so that also accounts for the many decision wins.

Edit: And I hate when people bring up silly ball sport nonsense like Basketball & use it as some sort of evidence for "evolution" without realizing that Boxing is far far older & peaked in popularity at an earlier date. You find depictions of Boxing from as far back as 5000 years ago & mentions of it in literature from cultures as diverse as ancient India to Greece to Egypt. 80-90 years is a mere blip in time compared to that. We know that even among Ancient Greeks they used gloves, used similar training methods, had defensive wizards (contrary to the mistaken idea that they were all meat heads swinging away wildly at each other) like Melankomas etc.

Combat sports are far more ancient & there is something innately appealing about them to people, long after the ball sports are dead Boxing will live on as it has for at least 5000 documented years. So to assume that for all those years people didn't know what they were doing in a fist fight & were just swinging away wildly smacks of arrogance, fighters adjust to the rule set in which they fight & when you bring in major changes like gloves its gonna take a bit of time to figure out what works best & what doesn't.
Well put & thought out post
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Old 05-31-2012, 06:36 PM   #43
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

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Originally Posted by bman100 View Post
in dejesus 2 and palomino the commentators said he was one of the best p4p fighters ever.

Did they say this about Harry Greb.

Manny is another example, he is from another country and hes said to be the best of this generation.
Plenty of fighters said so about Greb, both guys who fought him but others from his era who didn't. I have seen the quotes in various threads before, perhaps a Greb hardcore can post some contemporary fighters opinions of him.

From 1925 comparing him to Stanley Ketchel and Bob Fitzsimmons:
Quote:
"Harry Greb is considered to be one of the best boxers ever to step in the ring."

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In addition to his great resume afaik Greb never drew the color line which is another plus in his favor.
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Old 05-31-2012, 06:51 PM   #44
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

What if someone beat a prime Pernell Whitaker who has a stomach ache at 17? How good would that win be?

Has there been any fighter in the history of boxing that could have done that at 17?

Whichever way you spin it, the win is monumental.
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Old 05-31-2012, 06:55 PM   #45
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

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Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
This is what Harry Greb was doing in 1919...

Jan 14 Leo Houck Armory A.A., Boston, MA. W 12
Jan 20 Young Fisher Grand Opera House, Syracuse, NY. ND 10 Win
Jan 23 Paul Samson-Koerner Southside Market House, Pittsburgh, PA. ND 10 Win Ed Kennedy
Jan 27 Soldier Bartfield Memorial Hall, Columbus, OH. ND 12 Win Mr. Hughes
Jan 31 Tommy Robson Cleveland A.A., Cleveland, OH. ND 10 Win Bill Gorman
Feb 3 Len Rowlands Southside Market House, Pittsburgh, PA. ND 10 TKO 4 Ed Kennedy
Feb 10 Bill Brennan Olympian Arena, Syracuse, NY. ND 10 Win
Feb 17 Battling Levinsky Broadway Auditorium, Buffalo, NY. ND 10 Win Dick Nugent
Feb 28 Chuck Wiggins Coliseum, Toledo, OH. ND 12 Win Ollie Pecord
Mar 3 Chuck Wiggins Elks Club, Detroit, MI. ND 8 Win
Mar 6 Leo Houck Fulton Opera House, Lancaster, PA. ND 6 Win
Mar 17 Bill Brennan Duquesne Garden, Pittsburgh, PA. ND 10 Win Jack Dillon
(vs. Bill Brennan) Exact Atendance unavailable,
but estimated to be largest crowd at Duquesne Garden since Stanley Ketchel vs. Frank Klaus, March 23, 1910.
Mar 25 Harry "Happy" Howard Cambria Theatre, Johnstown, PA. ND 10 Win Jack Cosgrove
Mar 31 Billy Miske Duquesne Gardens, Pittsburgh, PA. ND 10 Win Jack Dillon
Apr 2 Tommy Madden Majestic Theatre, Butler, PA. ND 10 KO 2
Apr 7 Young "Caveman" Fisher Olympian Arena, Syracuse, NY. ND 10 Win
Apr 8 George "One-Round" Davis Broadway Auditorium, Buffalo, NY. ND 10 Win Dick Nugent
Apr 25 Leo Houck Mercantile Building, Erie, PA. ND 10 Win
Apr 28 Battling Levinsky Auditorium, Canton, OH. ND 12 Win Eddie Davis
May 6 Clay "Cheif" Turner Armory A.A., Boston, MA. W 12
May 8 Willie Meehan Duquesne Gardens, Pittsburgh, PA. ND 10 Win Joe Donnelly
May 13 Bartley Madden Broadway Auditorium, Buffalo, NY. ND 10 Win Joe Suttner
May 26 Tommy Robson Olympian Arena, Syracuse, NY. ND 10 Win
Jun 16 Joe Borrell Shibe Park, Philadelphia, PA. ND 6 TKO 5 Law Grissom
Jun 18 Harry "Happy" Howard Mercantile Building, Erie, PA. ND 10 Win
Jun 20 Yankee Gilbert Park Casino, Wheeling, WV. ND 10 TKO 4 Mr. Waher
Jun 23 Mike Gibbons Forbes Field, Pittsburgh, PA. ND 10 Win Ed Smith
(vs. Mike Gibbons) Attendance: 7,187. Gate: $15,654.00. Greb recieved 30% ($5,218.00) Gibbons got $5,000.00
Jul 4 Bill Brennan Convention Hall, Tulsa, OK. W 15 Ed Cochran
Jul 14 Battling Levinsky Shibe Park, Philadelphia, PA. ND 6 Win
Jul 16 George "KO" Brown Park Casino, Wheeling, WV. ND 10 Win Joe Donnelly
Jul 24 Joe Chip Idora Park, Youngstown, OH. ND 12 Win Mike McHale
Aug 11 Terry Keller Highland Park, Dayton, OH. W 15
Aug 23 Bill Brennan Forbes Field, Pittsburgh, PA. ND 10 Win
Sep 1 Jeff Smith Idora Park, Youngstown, OH. ND 12 Win Mike McHale
Sep 3 Battling Levinsky State Fair Grounds, Wheeling, WV. ND 10 Win
Sep 18 Silent Martin Coliseum, St. Louis, MO. ND 8 Win Mr. Helsner
Oct 13 Sailor Ed Petroskey Olympia A.C., Philadelphia, PA. ND 6 Win
Nov 17 George "KO" Brown Auditorium, Canton, OH. ND 12 Win
Nov 24 Larry Williams Southside Market House, Pittsburgh, PA. ND 10 Win Louden Cambell
Nov 27 Zulu Kid Nonpareil Club, Beaver Falls, PA. ND 10 Win Al Watson
Nov 28 Soldier Jones Broadway Auditorium, Buffalo, NY. ND 10 KO 5 Joe Suttner
Dec 10 Clay "Cheif" Turner Broadway Auditorium, Buffalo, NY. ND 10 Win Joe Suttner
Dec 12 Mike McTigue Ideal Pavilion, Endicott, NY. ND 10 Win
Dec 15 Billy Kramer Southside Market House, Pittsburgh, PA. ND 10 Win Louden Campbell
Dec 22 Clay "Cheif" Turner National A.C., Philadelphia, PA. ND 6 Win

This shit reads like science fiction. Did any fighter ever have a better year?
other than armstrong in 38 don't think there's any comparison
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