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Old 05-31-2012, 08:56 PM   #46
dpw417
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

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Originally Posted by Hands of Iron View Post
Klompton blames multiple conflicting newspaper accounts and writers with an agenda against him. Robinson on the other hand happened to be of america's favorite racial group during the 40s and 50s and was known as a real sweetheart out of the ring. That's why he got his due in his own time.
This may have something to it...But I don't think Robinson was considered a sweetheart in the boxing biz...JG has told me in the past that boxing people gave the devil (Robinson) his due because he was just a brilliant fighter...and STILL P4P #1 in my book. Newspapers apparently would argue who is better Ketchel or Greb???...Newspapers in the west picked Ketchel...the east picked Greb...Posters on this board who had an agenda picked what suited their arguements subjectively and downplayed the other viewpoints...
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Old 05-31-2012, 09:14 PM   #47
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

In answer to the main question of the thread, I think it often takes decades of perspective to properly appreciate a fighter's resume, as opponents wind down or wind up their careers and as newer fighters try to duplicate the efforts of their predecessors. Some fighters are overrated during their careers, others under appreciated. Think Jack Dempsey.
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Old 05-31-2012, 09:18 PM   #48
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

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This may have something to it...But I don't think Robinson was considered a sweetheart in the boxing biz...JG has told me in the past that boxing people gave the devil (Robinson) his due because he was just a brilliant fighter...and STILL P4P #1 in my book. Newspapers apparently would argue who is better Ketchel or Greb???...Newspapers in the west picked Ketchel...the east picked Greb...Posters on this board who had an agenda picked what suited their arguements subjectively and downplayed the other viewpoints...
That's right.
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Old 05-31-2012, 10:41 PM   #49
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

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I don't think it is strictly the case that Greb was not rated as pound for pound No1 during his career.

The problem is more that his career was forgotten verry quickly once it was over.

One thing that particularly harmed his standing, is the fact that he and his supporters did not live as long as other contemporary fighters and their supporters.
J, your explanation probably comes closest to the reason why Greb was not a household name for boxing fans commensurate with his abilities and
great resume...Greb died in 1926, and was quickly forgotten by most fans
still alive in the 1930s, before the advent of the internet...But to the top fighters and his opponents, he was always considered the best fighter they ever met...Mickey Walker, Gene Tunney, Maxie Rosenbloom, Jack Dempsey
lauded Greb to the skies,alongst Jack Johnson who after sparring with Greb called Harry the fastest fighter he ever saw...Nat Fleischer who saw them all from Ketchel on, switched from Ketchel to Greb in a Ring article before Nat died. Whitey Bimstein said '" I have no one OVER Greb ".
So Greb was appreciated greatly during his day when there wasn't
a category called P4P fighter...As some fighter once described Greb as
"a seven year itch". You couldn't knock him out, and you couldn't land more punches, cause he had inhuman stamina able in his prime to have 45 fights in 1919, with FORTY FIVE WINS...And that means hopping a train or bus from town to town sans A/C and kicking hell out of everyone no matter how outweighed he was...Who can top that feat ?
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Old 06-01-2012, 01:05 AM   #50
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

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I still don't understand why Langford is rated so highly

Edit: or the fact that people pick the likes of greb over many modern day middleweights. Honestly that video of him sparring is just god damn awful for modern day times. I respect the fact that the game has evolved a considerable amount since then, but I feel as if everyone on ESB is a sheep about it. They see the great posters of ESB put Greb and Langford in their top 10 p4p so they feel like they have to follow them.
Langford was a small man who fought bigger men in about d last decade or so of his career . He began his career at 147 and might have been doing it at 140 if it existed back then . he was denied title shots because he was black . he fought those who agreed 2 fight him as many times as he could in stark contrast with almost every1 else .
Langford KOd "Fireman" Jim Flynn (who KOd Jack Dempsey) at least 3 times .
He also stopped Tiger Flowers while being blind .
Stopped Kid Norfolk
Langford sometimes had stoppage wins over those who stopped him such as Bearcat Wright , Harry Wills .
He lasted 15 at age 23 and 156 lbs against Jack Johnson .
He had 1 stoppage loss 2 "Young Peter Jackson" and 1 2 Joe Jeanette but usually went d distance with them .
He also fought Joe Walcott and Joe Gans and ran "Mysterious Billy Smith" out of d ring . Quite nice feats from a partly 2 fully blind little midget . Not 2 mention that some of those feats were achieved while he was also old .
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Old 06-01-2012, 01:24 AM   #51
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

Nice post, frankie. Didn't know you had such respect for Langford. Then again, with all of his KOs and ducking of no man, it makes sense from you.

But he was not a midget!
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Old 06-01-2012, 01:34 AM   #52
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

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Yeah, exactly.

Langford was 17. Gans was the best fighter living. Even if you think the win is overated by me personally, you surely know enough to know it is extraordinary. Gans was turning up to fight for the title, after all, it wasn't like he was rocking up to spar some bum.
McGrain,

Around how many years have you been researching and studying Langford's career? Aside from Clay probably, janitor and yourself have pretty expansive knowledge on him, which differs from simple information. It's good stuff, really. I don't think anyone carried power up in weight quite like Sam, and he's got landmark wins in every division he fought (that's counting Walcott a W), second to none in that department. I think it was Nightcrawler who made a thread illustrating it.
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Old 06-01-2012, 01:38 AM   #53
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

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Nice post, frankie. Didn't know you had such respect for Langford. Then again, with all of his KOs and ducking of no man, it makes sense from you.

But he was not a midget!
He was . Especially 4 his weight . If he wasn't , who except of Joe Gans was ? Or were every1 else giants ?
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Old 06-01-2012, 01:40 AM   #54
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

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He was . Especially 4 his weight . If he wasn't , who except of Joe Gans was ? Or were every1 else giants ?


I only said that sarcastically because I'm not much taller than he was.
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Old 06-01-2012, 03:17 AM   #55
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

Re: Gans-Langford
Some contemporary quotes prior to the bout:

Boston Journal
Philadelphia, Pa., Oct. 23.--Joe Gans struck a tartar at the State Athletic Club tonight in the person of Dave Holly, a colored lightweight. Gans had the better of the bout on points, but his margin was so slight that many spectators thought he was bested.

New York Evening World
PHILADELPHIA, Oct. 24.--Joe Gans, the light-weight champion, had a very nice surprise package handed to him last night in the form of a hard and even contest from Dave Holly, one of Philadelphia's six-round glove artists.
On form it looked like a Government bond to a transfer ticket that the champion would put his man out inside of the limit, but Holly stayed, and, what's more, he put up a splendid contest and carried the fight to Gans after the second round.
...
Gans was very tired at the finish, and his condition showed plainly that the many bouts in which he has taken part during the last two weeks have taken the edge off his form.


New York Evening World
PHILADELPHIA, Nov. 3.--Joe Gans, light-weight champion, had a shade the worst of it in his six-round argument last night at the Washington Sporting Club. Gans met one Jack Blackburn and be it said to Mr. Blackburn's credit that he not only stayed with the champion, but earned at the worst a draw. Some of the spectators thought that if decisions were permitted Blackburn was entitled to it.

Philadelphia Inquirer
It may be that he has gone back; it may be that he was sadly out of condition, but the fact remains that Joe Gans, the champion lightweight of the world, was made to look like an ordinary preliminary fighters by Jack Blackburn in the wind-up at the Washington Sporting Club last night. Gans only secured the popular verdict over Dave Holly last week by the narrowest of margins, but last night there was not the slightest opportunity for a difference of opinion. He scored a knock-down in the first round with a short right to the jaw. But for that one punch, delivered after about a minute's sparring in the first, he would not have had a look in. Beginning with the second round Blackburn was clearly master of the situation.


Pawtucket (RI) Evening Times
Whether or not Gans has gone back is a question. Some say that he has, that his life of ease has not done him any good. Recently he met a comparative unknown in Jack Blackburn and came near getting licked, but Gans was out of condition which was to show the chances champions take touring the country and meeting all comers in exhibition bouts.


Philadelphia Inquirer
Joe Gans and Dave Holly met in the wind-up at the Washington Sporting Club last night, and Gans again demonstrated that he cannot be seriously considered as a championship proposition.
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Old 06-01-2012, 03:24 AM   #56
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

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This is what Harry Greb was doing in 1919...
This shit reads like science fiction. Did any fighter ever have a better year?
I'll take Terry McGovern's 1900 over Greb's 1919.
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Old 06-01-2012, 04:01 AM   #57
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

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Then how can that win be compared to beating a prime Pernell McGrain .
Because Gans was the era's equivalent, in his absolute prime. Even if he was tired and had a stomach ache i'd submit that the manner of the victory makes it one of the single most extraordinary things ever done in the ring. But even if you think it is "just" a great win, a great win over atn ATG lightweight at 140lbs aged seventeen through to a one-punch KO whilst blind against an ATG MW with a superb HW resume sandwiched in between should be all the clue you need as to his high ranking. He's my #1 personally.
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Old 06-01-2012, 04:02 AM   #58
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

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McGrain,

Around how many years have you been researching and studying Langford's career?.
To be honest, Clay's book is the key for me. Once you've read that you're up and away, anything you add is just going to be a healthy bonus.
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Old 06-01-2012, 04:08 AM   #59
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

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I thought the idea of p4p was that if everyone was in the same weight class who would win
What? That's absurd.
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Old 06-01-2012, 04:45 AM   #60
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

But actually true to the definition. Doesn't it mean all things being equal this fighter is the best?
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