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Old 06-01-2012, 05:02 AM   #61
Webbiano
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

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Originally Posted by Senya13 View Post
Re: Gans-Langford
Some contemporary quotes prior to the bout:

Boston Journal
Philadelphia, Pa., Oct. 23.--Joe Gans struck a tartar at the State Athletic Club tonight in the person of Dave Holly, a colored lightweight. Gans had the better of the bout on points, but his margin was so slight that many spectators thought he was bested.

New York Evening World
PHILADELPHIA, Oct. 24.--Joe Gans, the light-weight champion, had a very nice surprise package handed to him last night in the form of a hard and even contest from Dave Holly, one of Philadelphia's six-round glove artists.
On form it looked like a Government bond to a transfer ticket that the champion would put his man out inside of the limit, but Holly stayed, and, what's more, he put up a splendid contest and carried the fight to Gans after the second round.
...
Gans was very tired at the finish, and his condition showed plainly that the many bouts in which he has taken part during the last two weeks have taken the edge off his form.

New York Evening World
PHILADELPHIA, Nov. 3.--Joe Gans, light-weight champion, had a shade the worst of it in his six-round argument last night at the Washington Sporting Club. Gans met one Jack Blackburn and be it said to Mr. Blackburn's credit that he not only stayed with the champion, but earned at the worst a draw. Some of the spectators thought that if decisions were permitted Blackburn was entitled to it.

Philadelphia Inquirer
It may be that he has gone back; it may be that he was sadly out of condition, but the fact remains that Joe Gans, the champion lightweight of the world, was made to look like an ordinary preliminary fighters by Jack Blackburn in the wind-up at the Washington Sporting Club last night. Gans only secured the

popular verdict over Dave Holly last week by the narrowest of margins, but last night there was not the slightest opportunity for a difference of opinion. He scored a knock-down in the first round with a short right to the jaw. But for that one punch, delivered after about a minute's sparring in the first, he would not have had a look in. Beginning with the second round Blackburn was clearly master of the situation.


Pawtucket (RI) Evening Times
Whether or not Gans has gone back is a question. Some say that he has, that his life of ease has not done him any good. Recently he met a comparative unknown in Jack Blackburn and came near getting licked, but Gans was out of condition which was to show the chances champions take touring the country and meeting all comers in exhibition bouts.


Philadelphia Inquirer
Joe Gans and Dave Holly met in the wind-up at the Washington Sporting Club last night, and Gans again demonstrated that he cannot be seriously considered as a championship proposition.
Great sources bud, much appreciated
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Old 06-01-2012, 05:20 AM   #62
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

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Because Gans was the era's equivalent, in his absolute prime. Even if he was tired and had a stomach ache i'd submit that the manner of the victory makes it one of the single most extraordinary things ever done in the ring. But even if you think it is "just" a great win, a great win over ATG lightweight at 140lbs aged seventeen through to a one-punch KO whilst blind against an ATG MW with a superb HW resume sandwiched in between should be all the clue you need as to his high ranking. He's my #1 personally.
I feel like I've been given substantial evidence by others in this thread to suggest this win wasn't exactly that great. Yes it was over an ATG lightweight but from what I've researched, Gans appeared to have been the stand out lightweight but certainly did not dominate the division, (well at the time he fought Langford)

The way that people present the argument about Langford being so high as an ATG is that his loses don't mean anything (just how I'm perceiving it, I could be completely wrong) and why should someone's hinderances in their career (being short and not being able to see very well) effect everything so dramatically. Surely Manny Pacqiao shoud be very high on your ATG list then considering he's come up dramatically in weight and if were comparing it in pounds Sam only beats him by about 10.

At the end of the day there all fighters and Langfords loses just seem like a load of excuses like he can barely see or he's short. I could feel comfortable
In saying Lennox Lewis was the best HW of all time because he never lost in his prime, shouldn't have been stopped against McCall, was the second heaviest he'd ever been in a fight. I guess this perception of loses have changed over time with the more modern fighters, which considering the amount of fights they had annually is slightly justified.

Cheers for the history lesson though McGrain and the others that also chipped in, you've educated me on a subject that I've never really been bothered to even have a glimpse at it'd be much appreciated if you'd reply to these last few points
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Old 06-01-2012, 05:25 AM   #63
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

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Originally Posted by Webbiano View Post
I feel like I've been given substantial evidence by others in this thread to suggest this win wasn't exactly that great.
Well, it was, and even the two guys presenting that evidence think it was "great".

I'd suggest that of all fighters in history in that weight range, perhaps only Benitez could have re-created it. Furthermore, the manner of the victory, left hand leads, careful boxing, generalship elevates it even higher - for a seventeen year old to be able to win this type of fight even with the dying Joe Gans would have been astonishing.
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Old 06-01-2012, 05:41 AM   #64
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

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But actually true to the definition. Doesn't it mean all things being equal this fighter is the best?
No, because how do all things become equal?

If you take a heavyweight and a mini flyweight and try and magically match them up, where is the middle ground? It makes no sense on any level.
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Old 06-01-2012, 08:02 AM   #65
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

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I still don't understand why Langford is rated so highly

Edit: or the fact that people pick the likes of greb over many modern day middleweights. Honestly that video of him sparring is just god damn awful for modern day times. I respect the fact that the game has evolved a considerable amount since then, but I feel as if everyone on ESB is a sheep about it. They see the great posters of ESB put Greb and Langford in their top 10 p4p so they feel like they have to follow them.

I think it is a bit unfair to judge him just on that video without taking his record and who he beat into consideration.
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Old 06-01-2012, 08:23 AM   #66
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

Film is an invaluable reference tool.

Even if we only possessed Greb's first fight with Tunney and brawl with Walker the doubtful would be terribly tempted to change their minds.
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Old 06-01-2012, 08:46 AM   #67
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

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Originally Posted by fists of fury View Post
No, because how do all things become equal?

If you take a heavyweight and a mini flyweight and try and magically match them up, where is the middle ground? It makes no sense on any level.
That's what p4p is to many people & that is why it's absurd and made up for small guys as a consolation prize IMO.

Nature unfortunately is "unfair" in what it blesses people with & most guy's can't be HW's so they hang onto this like its something real.
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Old 06-01-2012, 08:51 AM   #68
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

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Originally Posted by Diagoras View Post
That's what p4p is to many people & that is why it's absurd and made up for small guys as a consolation prize IMO.

Nature unfortunately is "unfair" in what it blesses people with & most guy's can't be HW's so they hang onto this like its something real.
I don't think it's made up for smaller guys as a consolation prize, It's not even an official title.
It's just something where people have an opinion on who their best fighter(skills, resume etc) is at their weight compared to other fighters at their respective weight.
IMO
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Old 06-01-2012, 09:10 AM   #69
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

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Originally Posted by AlFrancis View Post
.
It's just something where people have an opinion on who their best fighter(skills, resume etc) is at their weight compared to other fighters at their respective weight.
IMO
A shining light in the fog. Thanks Al.
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Old 06-01-2012, 09:26 AM   #70
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

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Originally Posted by Diagoras View Post
That's what p4p is to many people & that is why it's absurd and made up for small guys as a consolation prize IMO.

Nature unfortunately is "unfair" in what it blesses people with & most guy's can't be HW's so they hang onto this like its something real.
Actually, I've seen Heavyweights placed higher than they typically would be based on accomplishments using that type of formula. The guys in the lower weights (particularly LW to MW) have historically tended to be a whole lot more interesting and skilled. A lot of great fighters have shifted through multiple divisions too quickly for standard divisional ratings to suffice. For instance, you won't typically see Henry Armstrong or Barney Ross rated at the top of any one division, although most would consider both greater overall than many they could be placed below in a strictly divisional sense, and it's based on how many rated/very good/great fighters they ran through. It's why some guys can also do a majority, if not all of their work in a single division and still rate high in a P4P sense, in addition to their skills, ability and perception of their quality of opposition. Some place a lot of emphasis on being able to move up and take out the best in higher weights, although that's become much easier with the addition of so many sub-divisions and the dilution it's inevitably brought on.
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Old 06-01-2012, 11:30 AM   #71
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

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Originally Posted by fists of fury View Post
No, because how do all things become equal?

If you take a heavyweight and a mini flyweight and try and magically match them up, where is the middle ground? It makes no sense on any level.
It doesn't, and that's why pound for pound is and always had been a mythical title. that's why most books don't say the 100 greatest p4p fighters as that would indicate some sort of head to head rating. Pound for pound lists are relatively recent.

What do you think the words pound for pound mean anyone?
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Old 06-01-2012, 11:38 AM   #72
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

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When he was fighting were people saying he was the best fighter p4p of all time? Also if you go back like 30/40 years every historian and boxing fan was calling Sugar Ray the best fighter p4p, which they did even in 1950 (while he was close to his prime.) Even today some people say Sugar is the best. Greb is without a doubt the best fighter to me in terms of record and that makes him the best fighter pound for pound. Just wondering why that title came to him so late?
There's no such title.

"Best fighter ever pound-for-pound" is not a real title. Not one that can be won, or earned, or figured out by some feat of intellectual intuition or reasoning..
People here might talk about it like it's real, but this place isn't normal. The home to a bunch of fanatics ..... and fantasists.
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Old 06-01-2012, 11:49 AM   #73
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

Again, he's outside my top 5... With no film evidence of him.. I just can't put him any higher.
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Old 06-01-2012, 12:38 PM   #74
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

Seems strange. If Ali wasn't filmed, would he cease being the best heavyweight?
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Old 06-01-2012, 12:57 PM   #75
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Default Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

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Seems strange. If Ali wasn't filmed, would he cease being the best heavyweight?
The evidence suggests in due course it will happen. As there is no generally considered theory to work these things out, the 'experts' of their time, get to make these judgements, using their bias' and agendas.
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