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Old 06-03-2012, 12:46 PM   #16
Bummy Davis
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Default Re: What makes Marciano so special against sub 190lbers throughout history?

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Because he was massively strong and powerful for his weight, owing to what I think was a naturally brilliant physical structure. Though short of height and reach, Marciano was a human tank with thick, short bones that lent themselves well to absorbing and supporting big forces. As evidenced by his post-career weight gain, Marciano was naturally more than just a bit portly - and his fighting body was trimmed of nearly all fat - but he still looked stocky. Also characteristic of this robust build are mechanically advantaged tendon insertion points and long, thick, if not very defined, muscles. Rocky could have been a power lifter.

When you add huge amounts of stamina you end up with a physical monster. If that physical monster will not back down for ****, then it doesn't need skill to be good. As it turns out, once honed, Marciano was cagey enough to maintain a good hit ratio with anyone, and he, if nobody else, fought fighters who were easily capable of re-teaching him some old textbook stuff - Moore, Charles and Walcott.

great answer
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Old 06-03-2012, 12:50 PM   #17
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Default Re: What makes Marciano so special against sub 190lbers throughout history?

Thank you, however, I have an uneasy feeling that Seamus is going to come in here and show me up.
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Old 06-03-2012, 01:05 PM   #18
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Default Re: What makes Marciano so special against sub 190lbers throughout history?

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Marciano was a natural athlete.

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This is probably the most overlooked aspect of Marciano. A physical freak the likes of Fitz and Langford.
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Old 06-03-2012, 01:07 PM   #19
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Default Re: What makes Marciano so special against sub 190lbers throughout history?

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This is probably the most overlooked aspect of Marciano. A physical freak the likes of Fitz and Langford.
So did you have a disagreement with me or not?
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Old 06-03-2012, 01:34 PM   #20
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Default Re: What makes Marciano so special against sub 190lbers throughout history?

Langford and Tunney are the only two I'd give a good chance of beating The Rock around the sorta' weight. Marciano takes Dempsey IMO.

I'd take early heavyweight Evander over The Rock, but the one that was ****ed near the end of 15 with Qawi? I love Braxton but Marciano ices that Holyfield late.
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Old 06-03-2012, 01:42 PM   #21
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Default Re: What makes Marciano so special against sub 190lbers throughout history?

Simple, because of his talent + the size\style advantage when talking about natural 175 fighters and because there haven't been a great deal of great fighters campaigning around that precise 185-190 range.

The other special ones that prompt strong debates vs the Rock are also recognised as excellent or great heavies.

It's a bit like asking why joe Frazier is so special against sub 200lb men.Obvious to the more cultured eye.

Or of course why is any *insert great fighter* so special against "sub optimum weightclass opposition* because very few Fly's are beating the greatest Bantams, few Bantams beating the greatest feathers and so on

It's why we love wins like Duran vs Leonard, harada vs Jofre etc and why Marciano beating Mike Tyson with a significant weight disadvantage in what is a p4p fight in the purest sense(as are many heavyweight fights) would be one of the great wins were it ever possible.More likely he'd get his skull horribly caved in, but that's another debate.
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Old 06-03-2012, 01:43 PM   #22
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Default Re: What makes Marciano so special against sub 190lbers throughout history?

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To give Marciano a nod offer any 190 pounder that ever fought based on his record and level of opposition is a huge leap of faith ... I feel Sam Langford would have iced him and there are at least a few others that would have had terrific shots at beating him as well ...
langford vs marciano is one of my all-time fantasy matchups. to me, that is the ultimate pick 'em fight.

there's a few sub-190 pounders in their prime that rocky would have had hell beating but there's also no way to ever count him out. m. spinks, holyfield and even toney on a good night are a few fighters that come to mind.
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Old 06-03-2012, 03:06 PM   #23
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Default Re: What makes Marciano so special against sub 190lbers throughout history?

im not an expert on Marciano.

But a guy who beats the **** out of bigger guys, will most likely be a complete monster to guys his own size or smaller.

use Tyson as an example, known as a small heavyweight, he was knocking out bigger skilled men. Look at what happened when he fought much smaller guys, guys his own size and smaller.

Spinks, Frazier and Norris...all first round Kos
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Old 06-03-2012, 03:12 PM   #24
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Default Re: What makes Marciano so special against sub 190lbers throughout history?

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So did you have a disagreement with me or not?
On Marciano being a great athlete? Yes.

On your interpretation of his physiognomy? Probably not. I don't find his talents reducible to visual aspects. I would say that Marciano was preternaturally powerful, that he had a very strong base, was able to put his entire body behind shots and had inhuman stamina and durability. His intangibles, the focus and will, are way up there, also.
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Old 06-03-2012, 04:01 PM   #25
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Default Re: What makes Marciano so special against sub 190lbers throughout history?

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On Marciano being a great athlete? Yes.

On your interpretation of his physiognomy? Probably not. I don't find his talents reducible to visual aspects. I would say that Marciano was preternaturally powerful, that he had a very strong base, was able to put his entire body behind shots and had inhuman stamina and durability. His intangibles, the focus and will, are way up there, also.
You don't think physical structure gives an indication as to how strong someone is?

Maybe among the general public you would have a harder time predicting how strong someone is by looking at them due to variables such as some people leading sedentary lives, some not, and some sitting in the middle, however when talking about athletes at the top of their game, aside from an obvious and highly variable mental aspect, the only other differentiating factors are observable ones due to the structure of their physique.

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I would say that Marciano was preternaturally powerful, that he had a very strong base, was able to put his entire body behind shots and had inhuman stamina and durability.
But how?

It's all physics. Bone, tendon and muscle all vary in length, width and density (density being less obvious but still roughly measurable without equipment) and every measurement factors into whether someone is strong, weak, durable, endurable, whatever. Sometimes, more so with athletes, we can estimate what their performance is going to be like based on looks. You will often find people with barrel-shaped chests have a lot of endurance because they have a large heart and lungs to support their activity, although to clarify, this is not always the case as various health differences can exist with regards to arteries, function of the heart and lungs, central nervous system function and so on... Rocky Marciano was likely in perfect health, with good CNS function, and that optimally shaped body, with a powerful set of lungs to match his metaphorical fighting heart.
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Old 06-03-2012, 04:03 PM   #26
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Default Re: What makes Marciano so special against sub 190lbers throughout history?

And a big thick ****?
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Old 06-03-2012, 04:11 PM   #27
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Default Re: What makes Marciano so special against sub 190lbers throughout history?

POWER!

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Old 06-03-2012, 04:12 PM   #28
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Default Re: What makes Marciano so special against sub 190lbers throughout history?

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And a big thick ****?
But surely not bigger than Langford's p4p, right.
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Old 06-03-2012, 09:40 PM   #29
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Default Re: What makes Marciano so special against sub 190lbers throughout history?

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Who is the "we" you speak for?
Any poster of Classic that pays attention. Maybe nobody.
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Old 06-03-2012, 09:48 PM   #30
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Default Re: What makes Marciano so special against sub 190lbers throughout history?

When Seamus says a strong base, surely he means physically (I.E. a physical one). I do not think you guys aren't disagreeing. Seamus is just clever at playing a pretentious contrarian. I say that no ill will. Seamus is a very smart and funny poster. Thanks to his contributions in this thread I've visited Merriam Webster a handful of times.
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