1935 Max "Bronze Age" Baer VS 2005 Sam "Caveman" Peter

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by he grant

Here's what we do know ... Peter fought much bigger guys than Baer and Max fought no one close to Peter in size, strength, power and speed .... who wins ? No idea ... by no means do I think Max Baer is a lock though ..

Baer fought 6'8.5" 244lbs Jose Santa. 6'4" 220lbs Hank Hankison. 6'5".75" 263lbs Carnera', 6'3" 220lbs Arthur Dekuh. 30lbs of Peter's weight was his guts.He was an overated ,crude clubber, who lacked stamina. Who did he ever beat worth shit?

[MadcapMaxie]

Originally Posted by Absolutely!

Peter won the WBC belt, beat Toney twice, and dropped Wlad three times en route to a decision loss. What exactly did Galento do better than that?

Not saying he achieved more but Tony was no bum.

He was an amateur middleweight, lightheavyweight and heavyweight state champion and when he turned pro rose up to be the number 1 ranked contender beating some credible opponents along the way like Mann, Ettore etc. Was the only man in history to return the favour to Louis after being decked and beat the at the time highly touted Lou Nova. Ruined him infact.

Winning an alphabet belt in a time when they seemed to hand them out, beating a punch drunk, fat ex middle and dropping a guy known for his horrid chin arn't exactly amazing feats...

[Absolutely!]

Originally Posted by Flea Man

This is all fair but Peter was also shit at everything (and in his late 30s). As for Galento, was also tough as nails, rough and hit hard. Fact is he was a fat welterweight.

The Nova win was a win for Galento. Fact. It was ugly.

Yep, it was a win. So was Abner Mares vs Joseph Agbeko. If you want to count that shocking foul-fest in Galento's favour you're free to do so, but it doesn't give you much of a platform to criticise any of Peter's wins, including his controversial decision over Toney which was also a win. Fact.

Originally Posted by Flea Man

In the first Wlad fight; I think Peter's equilibrium was ruined. Hence why McCline knocked him around. Still, McCline was nothing special. Neither was Carnera, but looks more capable against better fighters than Peter (I consider the Sharkey win legit')

McCline doesn't have the knockouts to prove it but by many accounts of fighters and sparring partners he was a very hard puncher. He stunned Arreola as well, who's got an iron chin. His problem, it seems to me, was always that he was too tight in the shoulders and seemed to almost pull his shots at times out of fear of overcommitting.

Peter didn't strike me as someone whose chin got cracked. He took massive shots off Maskaev and Vitali following that McCline fight and never looked close to going down, though he was of course stopped on his stool against the latter. In fact it took Wlad and then Helenius to finally KO him nearly four years later.

Originally Posted by Flea Man

Peter's 'power' was only evident against shot and always vulnerable Maskaev and that Jeremy guy who was a journeyman.

Are you trying to say that Peter didn't have power? Come on man, that was more or less all he had in the early days since he was so crude in all other respects. To his credit he improved quite a bit under Masson's tutelage, but the power was always the main thing that made him competitive. It kept him in the Wlad fight, it won him both Toney fights (and badly rocked and KD'ed Toney in the rematch), it won him the WBC title, and won him the interest of HBO and the wider boxing community when he was first coming up through the ranks.

[Absolutely!]

Originally Posted by bodhi

The Nova fight was ugly but a legit win.

Holmes-Ali was sancioned too. Doesn´t mean Ali wasn´t shot and and had Parkinson, does it? Means nothing, since it´s all about money.

Did you see the Peter-Toney fights? Compared to even his (somewhat) near prime days - for example Holyfield fight? And you seriously wanna say he wasn´t through and done. And he won the first fight anyway. What does that tell you about Peter?

It tells me that Peter wasn't quite so useless as you seem to think since he won both fights. It's easy to refuse Peter any credit and simply say that Toney was shot since he didn't look so good, but what evidence is there prior to the first fight that supports your assertion? What losses to eight fight journeymen? What calls for retirement and outrage following a merciless one-sided beating?

Originally Posted by bodhi

And looking at Toney you think he was a hw? Seriously? That he could compete there shows what an excellent fighter he was (at his best) but he was no hw. His best feats are a drug-induced and nullified win over one of the worst champs ever in Ruiz and a win over shot Holyfield. Great. Sorry that does not make him a good contender, especially not when clearly beeing done and/or shot.

Galento fought in an era when many of the contenders wouldn't be considered true heavyweights today. Al Ettore fought at middleweight, Nathan Mann fought at super middleweight. Both men are considered two of Galento's top wins along with uber-foulfest Nova. From where I'm standing that doesn't make him a whole lot better than Toney. In fact it doesn't make him better at all.

And whist Galento's svelte and chiselled form puts Toney to shame, I have my doubts whether he was a legit heavyweight as well.

Originally Posted by bodhi

Hm, when I wouldn´t have seen the name, I´d have said you mean Peter with that.

Galento was aweful technically. So was/is Peter.

Peter was technically crude at a world class level but he was still recognisably a professional fighter. Galento had the sort of 'skills' that wouldn't have been out of place among drunken clueless oafs brawling on a Friday night. He frequently arm-punched, smothered his own shots, lost his balance in combinations and seemed literally incapable of throwing a jab, preferring instead to crouch in front of his opponents with his hands down then lunge forward with a badly telegraphed left hook (followed by more smothering of his own shots). Peter never displayed such rank amateurishness.

[Kalasinn]

I just want to give props to Absolutely!, he's made some superb posts in this topic.

[bodhi]

Originally Posted by Absolutely!

It tells me that Peter wasn't quite so useless as you seem to think since he won both fights. It's easy to refuse Peter any credit and simply say that Toney was shot since he didn't look so good, but what evidence is there prior to the first fight that supports your assertion? What losses to eight fight journeymen? What calls for retirement and outrage following a merciless one-sided beating?

He did not win both fights. He lost the first one. did you even see it? And yes, Toney was shot, indicated by his declining performances in the years before and how he looked during their fights. He was very much past it in the first and completly done in the second. Another indication how punch-drunk and done he is would be him slurring his speach so much that you are barely able to understand him. And not just recently that started years back. Toney was shot, old, fat and a natural smw. And his hw credentials are very thin anyway, as pointed out before.

Originally Posted by Absolutely!

Galento fought in an era when many of the contenders wouldn't be considered true heavyweights today. Al Ettore fought at middleweight, Nathan Mann fought at super middleweight. Both men are considered two of Galento's top wins along with uber-foulfest Nova. From where I'm standing that doesn't make him a whole lot better than Toney. In fact it doesn't make him better at all.

You mean like Toney? And yeah it was a foulfest, so? Peter´s best fight was probably the first one against Wlad and the only reason why he won rounds was because he rabbit punched. What´s your point? Galento fought legitimate hw contenders. And he beat them. And more than Toney or Peter did. Doesn´t matter if those were true hws today or not since in history there is this funny rule that eras have to be judged by their standards and not by current ones.

Originally Posted by Absolutely!

And whist Galento's svelte and chiselled form puts Toney to shame, I have my doubts whether he was a legit heavyweight as well.

Which makes his success there even more impressive. Thanks for pointing this out.

Originally Posted by Absolutely!

Peter was technically crude at a world class level but he was still recognisably a professional fighter. Galento had the sort of 'skills' that wouldn't have been out of place among drunken clueless oafs brawling on a Friday night. He frequently arm-punched, smothered his own shots, lost his balance in combinations and seemed literally incapable of throwing a jab, preferring instead to crouch in front of his opponents with his hands down then lunge forward with a badly telegraphed left hook (followed by more smothering of his own shots). Peter never displayed such rank amateurishness.

Anyway, this is turning in circles, so I´m out. I made my point, you disagree. I´m right, you´re wrong. Thanks for reading.

[Sardu]

Baer by kayo.

[Flea Man]

Originally Posted by Kalasinn

I just want to give props to Absolutely!, he's made some superb posts in this topic.

Unlike you he knows what he's talking about.

[Flea Man]

Mares-Agbeko was a close fight despite the fouls.

My point about Peters power is just that: supposedly the only thing he had bit who did he stop?

Absolutely! I can see your side of things entirely. Don't agree that Peter is any better or that Galento's 'bar room' skills are just that. Despite his shape and approach, he was a very experienced boxer, and not the Butterbean-esque figure he's often painted as (usually to bash Louis)

[PowerPuncher]

Peter isn't very good, he's an oaf but he does have fast hands for an oaf, very strong, obviously very heavy handed (not powerful but very heavy handed making opponents wary. Because of his lack of technical skills he's mistook as someone who's easy to outbox, but his speed combined with his heavy hands means unless you are a 6'6 master boxer you aren't having an easy time outboxing him and his fights with Toney proves just that

I see Baer outboxing and outcountering him, a clear decision but I don't think it would easy. Peter's chin definitely was very proven, Wlad and Vitali couldn't put him down in those initial fights. I think Peter lands a fair bit on Baer too

[Foreman Hook]

Delete - dont wanna make powerful enemies.

[red cobra]

Originally Posted by Absolutely!

Yep, it was a win. So was Abner Mares vs Joseph Agbeko. If you want to count that shocking foul-fest in Galento's favour you're free to do so, but it doesn't give you much of a platform to criticise any of Peter's wins, including his controversial decision over Toney which was also a win. Fact.



McCline doesn't have the knockouts to prove it but by many accounts of fighters and sparring partners he was a very hard puncher. He stunned Arreola as well, who's got an iron chin. His problem, it seems to me, was always that he was too tight in the shoulders and seemed to almost pull his shots at times out of fear of overcommitting.

Peter didn't strike me as someone whose chin got cracked. He took massive shots off Maskaev and Vitali following that McCline fight and never looked close to going down, though he was of course stopped on his stool against the latter. In fact it took Wlad and then Helenius to finally KO him nearly four years later.



Are you trying to say that Peter didn't have power? Come on man, that was more or less all he had in the early days since he was so crude in all other respects. To his credit he improved quite a bit under Masson's tutelage, but the power was always the main thing that made him competitive. It kept him in the Wlad fight, it won him both Toney fights (and badly rocked and KD'ed Toney in the rematch), it won him the WBC title, and won him the interest of HBO and the wider boxing community when he was first coming up through the ranks.

The sweet spot man..McCline found the sweet spot, that's all. Baer would have crushed that sweet spot.

[bodhi]

Originally Posted by PowerPuncher

Peter isn't very good, he's an oaf but he does have fast hands for an oaf, very strong, obviously very heavy handed (not powerful but very heavy handed making opponents wary. Because of his lack of technical skills he's mistook as someone who's easy to outbox, but his speed combined with his heavy hands means unless you are a 6'6 master boxer you aren't having an easy time outboxing him and his fights with Toney proves just that

I see Baer outboxing and outcountering him, a clear decision but I don't think it would easy. Peter's chin definitely was very proven, Wlad and Vitali couldn't put him down in those initial fights. I think Peter lands a fair bit on Baer too

I don´t question his chin. Everybody can go down from a hard shot landing on the right spot. I question his stamina and will/heart. He can go 12 but at a low pace. Baer at his best would go a higher tempo than Peter is used to, and 15 instead of 12 rounds. And getting continuesly hit by shots as hard as the ones Baer delivers might very well take Peter´s will/heart away, as Vitali did. Of course Peter won´t make it easy, especially in the beginning, but I can see a tiring Peter quitting in the 11-13 rounds.

[he grant]

Originally Posted by mcvey

Baer fought 6'8.5" 244lbs Jose Santa. 6'4" 220lbs Hank Hankison. 6'5".75" 263lbs Carnera', 6'3" 220lbs Arthur Dekuh. 30lbs of Peter's weight was his guts.He was an overated ,crude clubber, who lacked stamina. Who did he ever beat worth shit?

Well that list of stiffs will really build credibility ... Peter would be far and away the most dangerous guy he ever fought ...limited but dangerous but so was Baer ..

Perhaps your forgetting how he had Wlad on the floor three times and hanging on for his life .... then again, Wlad was no Santa

[bodhi]

Originally Posted by he grant

Well that list of stiffs will really build credibility ... Peter would be far and away the most dangerous guy he ever fought ...limited but dangerous but so was Baer ..

Perhaps your forgetting how he had Wlad on the floor three times and hanging on for his life .... then again, Wlad was no Santa

Serously?

Ah, you mean the rabbit punches he needed to floor chinny Wlad?