Question:Why some have Rocky overJack?

[jdempsey85]

Ray Arcel was asked in an interview on HBOs jack dempsey doc early 80s i think would jack dempsey last with todays heavyweights,Arcel replied of course he would he'd have a picnic!

[DigMona]

These Dempsey threads never get old.

Anyway, I don't see either having a style advantage over the other really. The only thing styles point towards is that this fight would be an absolute war for however long it lasted. I think this fight would come down to toughness, will power and who just wants to go through the pain more. I would never go against Marciano if these are what decides it.

[he grant]

Originally Posted by ETM

Go ahead and list the contenders that Marciano faced that fit this description...Did the Rock even fight a live body over 200lbs? A 75 year old Joe Louis who couldnt lift his righthand perhaps.

Any minute you will hear about the exceptional skill of the 37 year old giant Joe Louis ... it really is a hoot ... the reality is that this is a very interesting fight and a terrific match up .. It's just amusing to hear the extremists from both camps talk about their men not walking on water ...

[janitor]

I can understand why some people might pick Marciano, but by refusing to acknowlege that Dempsey has a huge stylistic advantage in the early rounds, they have both feet planted firmly in mid air.

The ultimate absurdidty is that the same people would pick Mike Tyson over Joe Frazier, and would not have any trouble understanding the stylistic advantage of the faster finisher.

[Hands of Iron]

Originally Posted by janitor

I can understand why some people might pick Marciano, but by refusing to acknowlege that Dempsey has a huge stylistic advantage in the early rounds, they have both feet planted firmly in mid air.

The ultimate absurdidty is that the same people would pick Mike Tyson over Joe Frazier, and would not have any trouble understanding the stylistic advantage of the faster finisher.

So you'd be willing to concede Tyson should be favored against all three (Dempsey, Marciano, Frazier)?

[Seamus]

Originally Posted by he grant

Any minute you will hear about the exceptional skill of the 37 year old giant Joe Louis ... it really is a hoot ... the reality is that this is a very interesting fight and a terrific match up .. It's just amusing to hear the extremists from both camps talk about their men not walking on water ...

I would take a 37 year old Louis over Willard 10 out of 10 times.

What the fuck is the fun of being moderate in this discussion? I'll drunk on tequila tonight, come back and tell you how Dempsey wouldn't break a sweat in dispatching the balding, sawed-off caveman.

[Webbiano]

Originally Posted by Seamus

I would take a 37 year old Louis over Willard 10 out of 10 times.

What the fuck is the fun of being moderate in this discussion? I'll drunk on tequila tonight, come back and tell you how Dempsey wouldn't break a sweat in dispatching the balding, sawed-off caveman.

Well put. There's no use sitting on the fence, unless you genuinely believe it is a 50-50. Even if your just 51% sure after considering, stylistic advantages, physical attributes etc that Marciano beats Dempsey, why say anything other than that?

[gentleman jim]

Good point Janitor. Styles make fights as we all know and I think Dempsey has the style to beat Rocky in what would be prhaps the most sensational HW fight of all time. Jack would pounce on Rocky right from the opening bell and look to end it early as Rocky was a somewhat slow starter. Marciano would have to then trade with Dempsey earlier than he probably would've wanted to and that's when the slugfest begins. Jack has a considerable edge in reach and handspeed so logic would seem to point to Jack's bombs getting to thier target first. No matter what the outcome this fight doesn't go the distance as this would not be a boxing match but a fight...a true pier sixer if there ever was one and in a fight like this I'll take Dempsey....it's right up his alley. Mind you I wouldn't bet my life savings on it....prbably not even a double sawbuck but I'll still go with Jack. And Burt....don't let 'em get to ya!

[DigMona]

Originally Posted by janitor

The ultimate absurdidty is that the same people would pick Mike Tyson over Joe Frazier, and would not have any trouble understanding the stylistic advantage of the faster finisher.

Frazier had been blown out early in his career, Rocky wasn't.

Wasn't Dempsey knocked out in a round before?

[dpw417]

Originally Posted by janitor

I can understand why some people might pick Marciano, but by refusing to acknowlege that Dempsey has a huge stylistic advantage in the early rounds, they have both feet planted firmly in mid air.

The ultimate absurdidty is that the same people would pick Mike Tyson over Joe Frazier, and would not have any trouble understanding the stylistic advantage of the faster finisher.

A Marciano/Dempsey hypothetical is one helluva fight. Dempsey has been quoted (in a modest self effacing way) saying that he wasn't sure if he could have beaten Marciano...He compared him to Tunney, as being a very hard, diligent trainer...High praise from Dempsey. The analogy to another hypothetical of Tyson/Frazier is spot on...I just think it's very close, and I think Dempsey would cause damage early...if it ends early, Dempsey is your winner...if Rocky survives early, I think he could win late...same with Tyson /Frazier btw...the over under for a Marciano win might be seven or so rounds. Brutal fight for both men.Rocky never looked good, but hit extremely hard, and despite appearances wasn't easy to hit...and Dempsey in the Firpo fight was open for right hands, but the film also shows the freaky leverage he got on those short punches that simply blasted Firpo off of his feet...extremely explosive punching. Except for some clips of Joe Louis, this punching display by Dempsey is some of the most jaw dropping footage you can see...check it in slow motion, you can't help but be impressed...
One more thing,(and off the subject but what the hell) sort of funny...considering your discussion(s) Burt and Hands of Iron...watch Robinson in a flurry coming out of a weave or pivot against LaMotta or Turpin II...the offensive sequence looks very similar to Dempsey winging shots upward coming out of a weave...

[burt bienstock]

Originally Posted by gentleman jim

Good point Janitor. Styles make fights as we all know and I think Dempsey has the style to beat Rocky in what would be prhaps the most sensational HW fight of all time. Jack would pounce on Rocky right from the opening bell and look to end it early as Rocky was a somewhat slow starter. Marciano would have to then trade with Dempsey earlier than he probably would've wanted to and that's when the slugfest begins. Jack has a considerable edge in reach and handspeed so logic would seem to point to Jack's bombs getting to thier target first. No matter what the outcome this fight doesn't go the distance as this would not be a boxing match but a fight...a true pier sixer if there ever was one and in a fight like this I'll take Dempsey....it's right up his alley. Mind you I wouldn't bet my life savings on it....prbably not even a double sawbuck but I'll still go with Jack. And Burt....don't let 'em get to ya!

They have already gj. Until this thread, I was a perfect teetoler...Now I am a raging alcoholic...Excuse me gj I have to get my brew...
P.S. My doctor told me to watch my drinking...So now I drink in front of my mirror .

[dpw417]

Originally Posted by Hands of Iron

So you'd be willing to concede Tyson should be favored against all three (Dempsey, Marciano, Frazier)?

You aren't asking me...but I would take the Tyson that fought Spinks over all three....those three are rightfully considered the greater heavies, but Tyson, in that given time frame was a H2H beast.

[Hands of Iron]

Originally Posted by dpw417

You aren't asking me...but I would take the Tyson that fought Spinks over all three....those three are rightfully considered the greater heavies, but Tyson, in that given time frame was a H2H beast.

I think people are under a grand delusion of the widest scope when they believe 218 lb George Foreman who blasted out Frazier hit one iota harder than the compact, much more robust, peaking Mike Tyson. Even if he did, is there nothing to be said for hand speed, punching technique, accuracy, use of angles, combinations? Foreman is so vastly inferior to Mike Tyson as a puncher, prime-for-prime, that the two hardly merit a comparison.

If Ali and Holmes could be any more susceptible to left hooks and right hands respectively, they're both in trouble. Oh, wait.

[dmar5143]

actualy there were tenors greater then caruso.mario lanza jussi bjorling.guiseppi distefano had more beauty and style and franco corelli could more then hold his own with caruso.caruso no doubt was and is still a great one but this is one topic i know better then boxing and baseball.the assumption of course is incorrect to think all the time a more resent star is greater then a past one.and there are great stars writers of old that said there man in there day honus wagner was greater then ruth or anybody..even experts or folks in the game are wrong at times.chalk it up to nostalgia or youthfull hero worship or half dozen other reasons doesnt mean its fact.
again both rocky and jack were great ones.to say jack was a fast starter look at his first rd kos but to negate the fact that jack was decked at least 14 times in fights in the first two rounds also means other guys started off fast against him or withstood his very early onslaught and put some hurt on jack.to negate or discount rockys early kos also isnt fair.you cant have it just one way..to me dempsey modernized how heavyweights fought.to me both reached the icon status.to me only 5 fighters are in that status.thats just me..my thoughts.in some cases ive seen so called experts and historians that rated fighters and there list is laughable.made with a agenda predudice for certain fighters without merit.
the topic is why some folks say like me favor rocky over jack.som,e of us gave solid factual reasons.others that favored jack some of them gave there imput with good thought.no ones changing anyones mind here.if you ask a question why do you favor rocky and some folks give excellent reasons then they ansered your question.accept there anser to your question as to why...your thirst for understanding why or trying to understand why has been ansered.to take and debate there reasons are wrong isnt a solution to anything.the author asked a question and it was ansered.he now knows why some choze rocky.again anyone who thinks jack im ok with also.both were great fighters and i realy dont feel its right or honorable to degrade either fighter as a poster or two has done here.when thats done a red flag of ignorance or predudice or plain hattred is the reason.nothing else.
burt i hope you understand this as not a post of debate or done with any malice but i feel your question has been ansered.i respect both fighters and both are amoung my all time favorites.i was fortunate to talk with both in a long talk and rocky on 3 different times.both are first rate classy guys that respected fighters from not only there era but the era before them.both were gentlemen with syle and brutaly honest in there ansers.both i respect greatly.

[dpw417]

Originally Posted by Hands of Iron

I think people are under a grand delusion of the widest scope when they believe 218 lb George Foreman who blasted out Frazier hit one iota harder than the compact, much more robust, peaking Mike Tyson. Even if he did, is there nothing to be said for hand speed, punching technique, accuracy, use of angles, combinations? Foreman is so vastly inferior to Mike Tyson as a puncher, prime-for-prime, that the two hardly merit a comparison.

If Ali and Holmes could be any more susceptible to left hooks and right hands respectively, they're both in trouble. Oh, wait.

Nope, have to disagree...Definitely not inferior as far as pure power is concerned. I'd would take (young) Foreman over Tyson...Old George wanted Tyson so bad...it freaked him out actually. Don King tried and tried to make that fight...would have been a 100 million dollar fight.Tyson didn't want it for a reason. Ali would have some troubles with Tyson, but he would also have Tyson so wound up and out of his mind.. It's Ali over Tyson too. Ali breaks Tyson mentally then physically...Holmes? Tyson actually trained for Larry since he was what? 14 y/o?...Hmmmm Tyson might possibly get to Holmes. My two cents buddy...cheers.