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Old 06-06-2012, 10:15 AM   #1
gugabe
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Default Deaths in the Ring as an indicator of punching power - Why?

How are they a serious indicator of punching power in an older fighter? I've seen it bandied about that Dempsey and such are literal killers, and that it was due to the rocks in their hands rather than the schedule, lack of medical knowledge and general ineptitude of governing bodies back in the day.

The man that Sugar Ray killed, for instance, would not have been licensced to fight in the modern day and age due to the accumulation of recent brain trauma. Fatalities, rather than a product of punching power (Not saying any feather-fist can cause 'em), are a product of shoddy medical-knowledge.
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Old 06-06-2012, 10:18 AM   #2
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Default Re: Deaths in the Ring as an indicator of punching power - Why?

In all fairness fans of modern fighter David Tua on these boards acutally use Ike's rape conviction as evidence of his dangerous punching power...yeah. Tua's power made Ike a rapist.
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Old 06-06-2012, 10:21 AM   #3
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Default Re: Deaths in the Ring as an indicator of punching power - Why?

Considering relative non-punchers have also killed (Davila, Griffith, mcGuigan, all unspectacular punchers) I'm not sure how relevant it is.
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Old 06-06-2012, 10:24 AM   #4
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Default Re: Deaths in the Ring as an indicator of punching power - Why?

Yeah, it's a fair point.
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Old 06-06-2012, 10:28 AM   #5
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Default Re: Deaths in the Ring as an indicator of punching power - Why?

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Originally Posted by gugabe View Post
How are they a serious indicator of punching power in an older fighter? I've seen it bandied about that Dempsey and such are literal killers, and that it was due to the rocks in their hands rather than the schedule, lack of medical knowledge and general ineptitude of governing bodies back in the day.

The man that Sugar Ray killed, for instance, would not have been licensced to fight in the modern day and age due to the accumulation of recent brain trauma. Fatalities, rather than a product of punching power (Not saying any feather-fist can cause 'em), are a product of shoddy medical-knowledge.
I do not where you are going with this. Poor or lack of commissions, may of led to mismatches and ill conditioned fighters fighting and causing death. I would think it is hard to correlate punching power to ring fatalities per se. Most deaths of the Dempsey era would be down to a cumulative effect of a career and/or and unknown medical condition(s).

Now a days deaths are more down to weight making. As in the last 40 or so years I can only think of Regis (who died after a fight with Joe Bugner, who was not considered a world class puncher), and arguably Greg Page as Heavyweight ring fatalities. And I suspect that is in a large part due to Heavyweights not having the weight making difficulties of other fighters from other divisions.
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Old 06-06-2012, 10:41 AM   #6
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Default Re: Deaths in the Ring as an indicator of punching power - Why?

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Originally Posted by TBooze View Post
I do not where you are going with this. Poor or lack of commissions, may of led to mismatches and ill conditioned fighters fighting and causing death. I would think it is hard to correlate punching power to ring fatalities per se. Most deaths of the Dempsey era would be down to a cumulative effect of a career and/or and unknown medical condition(s).

Now a days deaths are more down to weight making. As in the last 40 or so years I can only think of Regis (who died after a fight with Joe Bugner, who was not considered a world class puncher), and arguably Greg Page as Heavyweight ring fatalities. And I suspect that is in a large part due to Heavyweights not having the weight making difficulties of other fighters from other divisions.
I was just reading somebody using the example of a Dempsey-era death in order to say that the heavyweights back then hit harder, rather than the fatalities being a product of a lack of medical knowledge.
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Old 06-06-2012, 10:45 AM   #7
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Default Re: Deaths in the Ring as an indicator of punching power - Why?

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Originally Posted by Flea Man View Post
Considering relative non-punchers have also killed (Davila, Griffith, mcGuigan, all unspectacular punchers) I'm not sure how relevant it is.
I don't disagree with this , but McGuigan was a pretty good puncher.
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Old 06-06-2012, 10:50 AM   #8
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Default Re: Deaths in the Ring as an indicator of punching power - Why?

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Originally Posted by The Mongoose View Post
In all fairness fans of modern fighter David Tua on these boards acutally use Ike's rape conviction as evidence of his dangerous punching power...yeah. Tua's power made Ike a rapist.
You said yourself Mong, Tua made Ike see demonz & make rapez.

Besides, how exactly can you "rape" all-expenses-paid prostitutes King sends to your hotel room?


On topic: Good point made.
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Old 06-06-2012, 10:56 AM   #9
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Default Re: Deaths in the Ring as an indicator of punching power - Why?

It depends exactly how the ring death is caused.

If it is a brain injury caused by a fighter being dehydrated, then I wouldn't draw masive inferences about the fighters power.

There are however cases such as Willard Young where the nature of the injury is indicative of considerable power.
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Old 06-06-2012, 11:35 AM   #10
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Default Re: Deaths in the Ring as an indicator of punching power - Why?

I don't think any doctor (let alone us) can presume to know exactly why a brain injury occurs for one fighter bu not another, or the circumstances surrounding it. The only thing that seems to ring true over just about all of them resulting in death hat I can think of is a stoppage occuring after many rounds have elapsed, which suggests that it isn't any one horrible shot that does the damage, rather an accumulation of punches. A true puncher is one who gets guys out of there early, and doesn't need to build cumulative damage in his opponent. They're already gone before that point.
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Old 06-06-2012, 06:08 PM   #11
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Default Re: Deaths in the Ring as an indicator of punching power - Why?

It's not a reliable indicator at all. How could it be since it happens so rarely?

On top of that it happens for so many different reasons: preexisting injuries, weight draining, illegal blows, cumulative punishment, shoddy post fight medical care, and so on. It's next to impossible to correlate deaths or serious injuries to punching power unless the injuries involve crushed eye sockets and broken vertebrae coming as the result of a small number of punches. Brain swelling and the like are more often caused by repeated medium strength punches over the course of a fight, and are also the injuries most likely to cause serious after-effects.

The most reliable indicator of top class punching power is, and always will be, the one punch KO. After that it's clean KOs (knocking an opponent unconscious with more than one punch), followed by stoppages of increasingly lesser severity.

Whether or not you were once unfortunate enough to kill a man in the ring is irrelevant, IMO.
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