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Old 06-07-2012, 02:18 PM   #31
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Default Re: Liston vs Marciano

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Originally Posted by dmar5143 View Post
boxing disgussions are fine but when total ignorance prevails thats another thing..by the way knocking out cleve williams isnt a big feat.williams was one of the most overated fighters ever.before liston he got koed by bob satterfield who had a glass jaw also. and weighted about 175 pounds.before liston some stiff who at that time was koed 6 times went 10 rounds twice with williams..the big cat was good at koing ham and eggers when he fought top guys he got koed.twice by mac foster.got beat by chuvalo.he barely beat a slipping eddie matchen in one of the most boring fights ever.he lost to earnie terrell in a boring fight.his claim to fame is he had two shootouts with liston and got koed both times.
Much of your statement can be reworked to Marciano.

Marciano's claim to fame is that he made his name by beating old faded fighters. All of them were over the hill, all of them were faded, all of them were older men; who still managed in many cases to out-box Rocco.
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Liston only has 4 loses. 2 against Ali, 1 early on his career, 1 late in his career. But he's over-rated right? Marciano has made his name on old fighters in unspectacular fights were he plods along until he clobbers something infront of him.
He retires at a younger age than the men he beat and defended his title against.
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Old 06-07-2012, 02:21 PM   #32
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Who's alt are you?
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Old 06-07-2012, 02:28 PM   #33
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Default Re: Liston vs Marciano

I think a Sonny Liston vs Rocky Macriano bout would look somewhat like the;

Sonny Liston versus Bert Whitehurst bouts,,,,,without the 'Knock-Out'.
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Old 06-07-2012, 03:52 PM   #34
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I've wrestled with this matchup a million times before and come up with a million different outcomes. On paper I can't see liston losing. He has all the physical advantages. He's taller, heavier with a much longer reach and posesses one of the most punishing jabs in the history of the HW division. Combine that with his solid fundementals and power and it would seem that Marciano can't win. Then again I factor in Rocky's strength, conditioning, stamina, determination and own 2 fisted power and I can't count him out either. I don't use Liston's performances against Ali as a barometer as to how he would do against Marciano as the two are as phsically and styilistically opposed as 2 fighters can be. Ali was a big super fast HW who could evade Listons bombs while landing his own with blinding speed. Rocky certainly isn;t that type of fighter. He would have to get in close to nullify Liston's 16" reach advantage (yikes) and ramrod jab to do damage. Could he do it? I don't know. He's going to have to eat alot of leather while working his way in close. Can he land often enough to hurt Sonny and plant the seeds of doubt in his mind? Again I don't know. Rocky has all the heart and courage...he wouldn't be intimidated like Patterson was but does he have the tools to get the job done? Would he be able to land enough punches to reallly hurt Sonny? In thier 1st fight, Ali landed about 20 thousand punches on Sonny before Sonny decided to call it a night. I just don't know if Rocky could do the same. I'll wait and see if some posters here can help me decide because I can't....at least not yet.
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Old 06-07-2012, 04:46 PM   #35
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Default Re: Liston vs Marciano

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I've wrestled with this matchup a million times before and come up with a million different outcomes. On paper I can't see liston losing. He has all the physical advantages. He's taller, heavier with a much longer reach and posesses one of the most punishing jabs in the history of the HW division. Combine that with his solid fundementals and power and it would seem that Marciano can't win. Then again I factor in Rocky's strength, conditioning, stamina, determination and own 2 fisted power and I can't count him out either. I don't use Liston's performances against Ali as a barometer as to how he would do against Marciano as the two are as phsically and styilistically opposed as 2 fighters can be. Ali was a big super fast HW who could evade Listons bombs while landing his own with blinding speed. Rocky certainly isn;t that type of fighter. He would have to get in close to nullify Liston's 16" reach advantage (yikes) and ramrod jab to do damage. Could he do it? I don't know. He's going to have to eat alot of leather while working his way in close. Can he land often enough to hurt Sonny and plant the seeds of doubt in his mind? Again I don't know. Rocky has all the heart and courage...he wouldn't be intimidated like Patterson was but does he have the tools to get the job done? Would he be able to land enough punches to reallly hurt Sonny? In thier 1st fight, Ali landed about 20 thousand punches on Sonny before Sonny decided to call it a night. I just don't know if Rocky could do the same. I'll wait and see if some posters here can help me decide because I can't....at least not yet.
How many “came to fight” when they fought sonny? People ask this of carnera but never of Liston. I am asking.

Don’t forget Marciano was a great fighter and nobody is guaranteed to wipe out a great fighter.

Remember, Liston would be punching down on marciano and would find rocky pretty frustrating and awkward. Liston would not enjoy the space to use that jab to set things up as easily as some would hope. It would not be one way traffic. bombs would be coming both ways, something Liston was not used to.

I would expect a competitive fight at the very least. Of the two marciano coped better in competitive fights. There is no evidence of anyone entirely overwhelming marciano in an exchange.


Liston was impressive at a level but his performances against psyched out opponents has created a mystique that has overblown his standing in h2h ratings. How many great fighters (who hit back at him) did Liston beat? Is marcianos one round win over walcott regarded as his best win? or better than the 13 round KO win the first time? is Ali's one round win over Liston regarded his best win? most one round blow outs show nothing other than that one man could not "get going" on the night. At top level they are as much about the loser being poor as the winner being good.

rocky fought off the other mans leads, he would want jabs to come at him, always ready. Marciano had no rhythm but that made him deadly because there was no pattern to follow. You moved in to reach him then he hit you. Liston would come in but struggle to find room inside then get hit back

Some can argue that you have to be great to psyche out another great fighter to the extent he becomes a lesser fighter on the night. However, to my mind if the man is not great when he is beaten then a great fighter has not been beat on the night.

Last edited by choklab; 06-07-2012 at 06:20 PM.
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Old 06-08-2012, 12:09 AM   #36
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Marciano beat guys in primes, Charles, and Moore, and even Walcott was still going strong at 38. Charles was 4 years older than maricano, Moore was still champ of lightheavies for 5 more years after Marciano fight.
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Old 06-08-2012, 02:25 AM   #37
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Default Re: Liston vs Marciano

When will people learn that boxing is fought in the ring and not on paper? Boxing is almost as much about intangibles as it is about ability. The quicker this is learned the easier people will put fighters like Liston and Marciano in the proper context.
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Old 06-08-2012, 02:50 AM   #38
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Default Re: Liston vs Marciano

Comes down to two things for me. First, Liston tends to be quite overrated on these boards. Second, Marciano was more cagey and difficult to land solid blows against than given credit for.

Liston will not be able to intimidate Marciano. Even though Liston is taller and heavier he is not necessarily the stronger man. He is capable of cutting Marciano's face up though - especially with his vaunted jab.

Rocky will have his customary rough going early in the bout. Liston will land his thudding jab and some nice combos. Rocky will taste the canvas, bleed from the nose and mouth, look a bit messy and....................................


He will kayo Liston in the 8th round. Liston will panic inside when he realizes that no matter how much punishment he dishes out Maricano will not capitulate. This will mentally destroy him and coupled with the Rock's firepower spell the end for Liston in the fight.


Marciano KO 8
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Old 06-08-2012, 06:28 AM   #39
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Default Re: Liston vs Marciano

how are you so sure that Marciano will not capitulate?

Rocky was knocked down by punchers much weaker than Liston. Sure he got up, but you rarely win rounds when you are getting beat down again and again.

How is Liston not the stronger man? He KOS opponents more definitely and quicker. He looks bigger, he has more muscle mass. Only a shite supremacist theory can devise Marciano is stronger.
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Old 06-08-2012, 06:49 AM   #40
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Default Re: Liston vs Marciano

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how are you so sure that Marciano will not capitulate?

Rocky was knocked down by punchers much weaker than Liston. Sure he got up, but you rarely win rounds when you are getting beat down again and again.

How is Liston not the stronger man? He KOS opponents more definitely and quicker. He looks bigger, he has more muscle mass. Only a shite supremacist theory can devise Marciano is stronger.
I think Liston is stronger and is obviously the naturally thicker/bigger man. He is also, from a "technical" standpoint, the better Pure "Boxer." His Jab alone, and with that reach...WOW...Amazing.

Liston, with his Boxing skills and natural size, is going to be very dangerous for Rocky.

Liston's peak years were on his rise to the title. That Man was a beast.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwUYR0n6eDA&hd=1[/ame]

It's certainly an interesting matchup.



One of the things of interests is that Liston would arguably be the Biggest Challenge for Marciano's Career as far as a "Prime" fighter that is a natural 200+ HW with Great "Boxing" Skills...who hasn't lost several times (especially by KO). It's certainly a great test. Marciano's is tough though so it will be a great matchup.

If Liston can control Marciano with his Long Powerful Jab, like we saw moments of an Aging Louis did, that's certainly an advantage. And we've seen Marciano have trouble with Boxers like Charles I and Walcott I.




____

Last edited by Caelum; 06-08-2012 at 07:01 AM.
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Old 06-08-2012, 06:58 AM   #41
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Default Re: Liston vs Marciano

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Originally Posted by PetethePrince View Post
When will people learn that boxing is fought in the ring and not on paper? Boxing is almost as much about intangibles as it is about ability. The quicker this is learned the easier people will put fighters like Liston and Marciano in the proper context.
Sound judgement.
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Old 06-08-2012, 07:02 AM   #42
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Default Re: Liston vs Marciano

Liston was much bigger, stronger, at least as fast, took at least as good a punch, was even a bigger two handed puncher and had about fifteen inches in reach ... Liston excelled at fighters coming at him ... Liston was a boxer puncher working off a sledgehammer jab which would be a monster weapon against a smaller, lighter guy trying to bull his way in .. I see Liston by TKO in under five ...
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Old 06-08-2012, 07:10 AM   #43
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Default Re: Liston vs Marciano

How is Marciano going to deal with a 6'8, 245-pound super heavyweight packed into a 6'0.5, 215-pound regular-sized heavyweight? All that inexplicable bone and muscle density the measurements won't show you will destroy him in round one. He wouldn't be able to reach or hurt Liston with stats like that going against him.
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Old 06-08-2012, 09:36 AM   #44
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Default Re: Liston vs Marciano

My '2-Cents'

My man Charles 'Sonny' Liston - a true monster, but

In 1954,

22 year-old, 'Detroit' Heavyweight 'boxer-puncher' Johnny Summerlin gave Sonny
a terrible time in 'two' 8-Round bouts.

Sonny, (born in 1927), was 27 at the time, so he was '5' years older than Summerlin,
and should have been physically stronger at 205 lbs.

Now, Sonny was just starting, but Johnny Summerlin was no more than 6' 1" and
193 lbs. 'soaking wet'. And at age 22, Johhny was no 'super experienced pro', despite
having '21' bouts at 18-1-2 (12 KO's).

If, Johnny could move Sonny around the ring, with medium-strength and average power,
I don't think Rocky would have had a major problem in the 'physical aspect of the fight'.

Rocky's problem, would have been the long 'piston-like' left jab.
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Old 06-08-2012, 11:25 AM   #45
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Default Re: Liston vs Marciano

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Originally Posted by Senor Pepe' View Post
My '2-Cents'

My man Charles 'Sonny' Liston - a true monster, but

In 1954,

22 year-old, 'Detroit' Heavyweight 'boxer-puncher' Johnny Summerlin gave Sonny
a terrible time in 'two' 8-Round bouts.

Sonny, (born in 1927), was 27 at the time, so he was '5' years older than Summerlin,
and should have been physically stronger at 205 lbs.

Now, Sonny was just starting, but Johnny Summerlin was no more than 6' 1" and
193 lbs. 'soaking wet'. And at age 22, Johhny was no 'super experienced pro', despite
having '21' bouts at 18-1-2 (12 KO's).

If, Johnny could move Sonny around the ring, with medium-strength and average power,
I don't think Rocky would have had a major problem in the 'physical aspect of the fight'.

Rocky's problem, would have been the long 'piston-like' left jab.
You saw that fight?
Is there any footage of Sonny Liston's "7th" Pro fight?
If so, can you please send me a link so I can view it. And maybe post up footage of that first fight they had just before.

As for as Strength, MENTAL Strength is a big part of athletics. If you are inexperienced, especially in a sport like boxing, your true physical strength may not be up to par because of "doubt" that has crept into your mind. There could be many factors in why a fighter has a poor performance but "inexperienced" can definitely be one. And don't give me this Sonny was older than the opponent because I can start listing names like Louis, Patterson, Ali, Foreman, and Tyson to counter how these younger fighters made their "Matured" counter-part look terrible.

Fight experience can play a crucial role no matter how old you are.

And it's not like Rocky and others didn't have any bumps in the road. It happens to inexperienced fighters. You need "Confidence."

And 21 fights is a lot more than 7. And 6'1, 193 isn't to far off to what Liston was. But you said "Soaking weight"...really? Why would you say that? off of what picture/footage?
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