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Old 06-08-2012, 11:50 AM   #46
Sardu
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Default Re: Liston vs Marciano

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Originally Posted by HerolGee View Post
how are you so sure that Marciano will not capitulate?

Rocky was knocked down by punchers much weaker than Liston. Sure he got up, but you rarely win rounds when you are getting beat down again and again.

How is Liston not the stronger man? He KOS opponents more definitely and quicker. He looks bigger, he has more muscle mass. Only a shite supremacist theory can devise Marciano is stronger.

Are you and Liston related or something? Your getting very defensive here. Emotional like a female or jilted lover or some such nonsense.
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Old 06-08-2012, 12:00 PM   #47
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Default Re: Liston vs Marciano

Johnny Summerlin is still alive,,,,,

At age 80, and living outside of northwest Detroit, in Farmington Hills, Michigan.

I'll try to post photo's of his bout with Sonny Liston.

On the 22 year-old Detroit-area Heavyweight.

Johnny possessed quick hands, and had a fine left jab. He was not a 'big-puncher',
but his right hand was a 'good attention getter'.

He stopped boxing after his May 1952 bout, and was inactive for 2-years, due to
a physical ailment. He came back in May 1954, and had '2' quick bouts versus
'semi-prospect' 23 year-old Oscar Pharo in May 11 (KO 4) and June 8 (KO 2).

On June 29, just 22-days after his '2nd-bout' with Osacr Pharo, he took on one
'brute' Sonny Liston with a record of 5-0-0.

Summerlin's victories over the 23 year-old Syrian-born Oscar Pharo 16-1-0 (8 KO's) were 'not'
considered a 'big-deal', as Oscar was nothing more than a '4-Round and 6-Round' Preliminary fighter.

Last edited by Senor Pepe'; 06-08-2012 at 12:37 PM.
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Old 06-08-2012, 02:01 PM   #48
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Default Re: Liston vs Marciano

Newspaper Article from February 24, 1956

Los Angeles, California
28 year-old, Johnny Summerlin 29-4-2 (19 KO's) just defeated 6' 3" 210 lb. Top 10 Heavyweight
Young Jack Johnson by a Unanimous Decision (W Dec 10) for his 11th straight win,
(since losing back-to-back fights to Sonny Liston back in June and August 1954).

The Boxing Promoter Mr. McCoy (Olympic Auditorium) was hoping to match Johnny with Brooklyn
New York's Floyd Patterson for the 'vacant' Heavyweight Championship, for sometime in the summer of 1956.

Johnny Summerlin from 1955

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

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Old 06-08-2012, 02:29 PM   #49
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Default Re: Liston vs Marciano

Quote:
Originally Posted by HerolGee View Post
how are you so sure that Marciano will not capitulate?

Rocky was knocked down by punchers much weaker than Liston. Sure he got up, but you rarely win rounds when you are getting beat down again and again.

How is Liston not the stronger man? He KOS opponents more definitely and quicker. He looks bigger, he has more muscle mass. Only a shite supremacist theory can devise Marciano is stronger.
Two flash knockdowns by great fighters is 'Getting beat down again and again?"
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Old 06-08-2012, 02:34 PM   #50
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Default Re: Liston vs Marciano

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One of the things of interests is that Liston would arguably be the Biggest Challenge for Marciano's Career as far as a "Prime" fighter that is a natural 200+ HW with Great "Boxing" Skills...who hasn't lost several times (especially by KO).




____


If Liston was born in 1927 then he was a fully grown, very mature specimen when he scaled 198lb in the first year of his career. If he got any bigger it was either middle age spread or body builders muscles. There was not much between Marciano and Liston in natural weight.

Marciano weighed over 190lb when he turned pro. His natural weight was above 190lb but he boiled down for extra stamina. it’s a question of one heavyweight fighting above his natural weight and the other fighting below his natural weight.

Getting onto the point of Marciano not fighting prime heavweights with great boxing skills who had not been knocked out “several times” exactly the same can be said of Liston but to a greater extent.

Patterson had been knocked out by the last world class fighter he had met before going into Liston (ingo). Harris had been knocked out by the last world class fighter he had met before runing into Liston (patterson). Machen had been knocked out by the last world class fighter he met before facing Liston (ingo). Folley had been knocked out before and was 1-1 against rated contenders in recent fights. There are no other worthy opponents Liston beat on his resume.
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Old 06-08-2012, 02:54 PM   #51
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Default Re: Liston vs Marciano

sonny liston all day too fast too strong too big,
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Old 06-08-2012, 02:56 PM   #52
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Default Re: Liston vs Marciano

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sonny liston all day too fast too strong too big,

fast?
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Old 06-08-2012, 02:58 PM   #53
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Default Re: Liston vs Marciano

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Originally Posted by choklab View Post
If Liston was born in 1927 then he was a fully grown, very mature specimen when he scaled 198lb in the first year of his career. If he got any bigger it was either middle age spread or body builders muscles. There was not much between Marciano and Liston in natural weight.

Marciano weighed over 190lb when he turned pro. His natural weight was above 190lb but he boiled down for extra stamina. it’s a question of one heavyweight fighting above his natural weight and the other fighting below his natural weight.

Getting onto the point of Marciano not fighting prime heavweights with great boxing skills who had not been knocked out “several times” exactly the same can be said of Liston but to a greater extent.

Patterson had been knocked out by the last world class fighter he had met before going into Liston (ingo). Harris had been knocked out by the last world class fighter he had met before runing into Liston (patterson). Machen had been knocked out by the last world class fighter he met before facing Liston (ingo). Folley had been knocked out before and was 1-1 against rated contenders in recent fights. There are no other worthy opponents Liston beat on his resume.

listons opponents were liver than marcianos, a middleweight, a MW/LHW an old LHW and an old HW. the only one of marcianos opponents liston would struggle with is charles, where as marciano would have a tough time with cleavland williams, of both liston fights.
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Old 06-08-2012, 03:02 PM   #54
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Default Re: Liston vs Marciano

Choklab,

I would think, that the pre-1955 Sonny at 203 to 205 lbs. was more natural.

He did look bigger, (after his prison term), obviously bulking up a bit
to the 210+ lb. range.

And, with more gym work-outs, again putting on a bit more mass.

1954 at Age 27 and 203 lbs.- not a stretch by any means, when comparing a 1959 Sonny Liston (Age 32) at 212 lbs.
Only 9 lbs, of weight, plus more muscle-mass.

Comparison, Muhammad Ali went from 210 lbs. to 218 lbs. in the same age span.
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Old 06-08-2012, 03:25 PM   #55
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Default Re: Liston vs Marciano

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Originally Posted by luke View Post
listons opponents were liver than marcianos, a middleweight, a MW/LHW an old LHW and an old HW. the only one of marcianos opponents liston would struggle with is charles, where as marciano would have a tough time with cleavland williams, of both liston fights.
What ever you think of him Marciano was at least a world class fighter and clevland Williams never beat world class fighters. Why would marciano struggle with a man who was knocked out by bob Satterfield and never beat a rated contender?

Marciano beat rated fighters on winning streaks who were beating actual rated heavyweights and champions. To get his shot marcinao climbed the ratings by beating contenders rated above him. Lastarza, laynne and joe louis were all rated ahead of marciano. You don’t get much liver than that.

The only fighter Liston beat rated above him was zorra folley in 1960. Before that all the name fighters he beat were losing fights and already below him in the ratings. Harris and machen were also below him when they met.
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Old 06-08-2012, 03:28 PM   #56
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Default Re: Liston vs Marciano

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Originally Posted by Senor Pepe' View Post
Choklab,

I would think, that the pre-1955 Sonny at 203 to 205 lbs. was more natural.

He did look bigger, (after his prison term), obviously bulking up a bit
to the 210+ lb. range.

And, with more gym work-outs, again putting on a bit more mass.

1954 at Age 27 and 203 lbs.- not a stretch by any means, when comparing a 1959 Sonny Liston (Age 32) at 212 lbs.
Only 9 lbs, of weight, plus more muscle-mass.

Comparison, Muhammad Ali went from 210 lbs. to 218 lbs. in the same age span.

so 203 was more natural than 198?

marciano fought under his natural weight. Liston fought (at his best) above his. both were 1950s heavyweights born within 4-5 years of one another its not quite the huge clash of eras or styles or sized heavyweights some think. IMO
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Old 06-08-2012, 03:32 PM   #57
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Default Re: Liston vs Marciano

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Originally Posted by choklab View Post
so 203 was more natural than 198?

marciano fought under his natural weight. Liston fought (at his best) above his. both were 1950s heavyweights born within 4-5 years of one another its not quite the huge clash of eras or styles or sized heavyweights some think. IMO
If Marciano had stayed around another 2 or 3 years, they probably would have fought.
I'm not sure that would have been a prime Rocky, though. I think he was starting to have back trouble.
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Old 06-08-2012, 03:37 PM   #58
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Default Re: Liston vs Marciano

Marciano by brutal KO late... Rock gets KD early and maybe even a few times... once Liston realizes he can't put im away and has been wore down... he either gives up or gets taken out..
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Old 06-08-2012, 03:43 PM   #59
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Default Re: Liston vs Marciano

Quote:
Originally Posted by choklab View Post
If Liston was born in 1927 then he was a fully grown, very mature specimen when he scaled 198lb in the first year of his career. If he got any bigger it was either middle age spread or body builders muscles. There was not much between Marciano and Liston in natural weight.

Marciano weighed over 190lb when he turned pro. His natural weight was above 190lb but he boiled down for extra stamina. it’s a question of one heavyweight fighting above his natural weight and the other fighting below his natural weight.

Getting onto the point of Marciano not fighting prime heavweights with great boxing skills who had not been knocked out “several times” exactly the same can be said of Liston but to a greater extent.

Patterson had been knocked out by the last world class fighter he had met before going into Liston (ingo). Harris had been knocked out by the last world class fighter he had met before runing into Liston (patterson). Machen had been knocked out by the last world class fighter he met before facing Liston (ingo). Folley had been knocked out before and was 1-1 against rated contenders in recent fights. There are no other worthy opponents Liston beat on his resume.
Liston was bigger. Natural 200+ pound even when trained down. He has one recorded 198 and that's it. Two pounds is nothing. He could have pissed that out. The rest are 200 and above including his first pro fight. You can even see it in their builds that Liston is naturally bigger. Upper and Lower body.

MARCIANO DID NOT BOIL DOWN IN WEIGHT. He trained down in to "Fighting weight" like the rest of them. There is a huge difference. If he "Boiled down" in weight he would not have had the stamina nor the strength he had to fight the way he did. He trained down to a weight he knew he was sure of that he would be Healthy while having the best stamina he could possibly have because the higher in weight you go there is no guarantee your stamina stays the same.
Marciano was a HW. He did not have to make weight...therefore it was about getting himself into the best shape possible. If he felt added weight would be beneficial, he would have weighed more.


How Old was Charles, Walcott and Moore?
How many fights did they have?
How many Wars did they have?
How many times had they been knocked down and knocked out?

I wouldn't say they were exactly "Prime." Not shot fighters but not "prime"

Cleveland Williams was worthy. Knocked out once before but still in his prime.

But yes, overall we could break down both their records.

In the end, a Prime Sonny Liston would be the biggest Challenge of Rocky's career. Liston was a natural 200+ pound HW, with Power in both hands, ATG Jab, Strong, and had very good boxing skills.

Good fight but I still take Liston by either UD or KO.

_____

Last edited by Caelum; 06-08-2012 at 03:54 PM.
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Old 06-08-2012, 03:48 PM   #60
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Default Re: Liston vs Marciano

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Marciano by brutal KO late... Rock gets KD early and maybe even a few times... once Liston realizes he can't put im away and has been wore down... he either gives up or gets taken out..
He had his jaw broken in a fight and didn't quit.

If Marciano goes down he can be taken out too. He was hurt both times when he was down. And also admitted he had been hurt before even when he didn't go down. That's boxing.
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