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Old 06-08-2012, 04:51 PM   #61
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Default Re: Liston vs Marciano

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Originally Posted by choklab View Post
What ever you think of him Marciano was at least a world class fighter and clevland Williams never beat world class fighters. Why would marciano struggle with a man who was knocked out by bob Satterfield and never beat a rated contender?

Marciano beat rated fighters on winning streaks who were beating actual rated heavyweights and champions. To get his shot marcinao climbed the ratings by beating contenders rated above him. Lastarza, laynne and joe louis were all rated ahead of marciano. You don’t get much liver than that.

The only fighter Liston beat rated above him was zorra folley in 1960. Before that all the name fighters he beat were losing fights and already below him in the ratings. Harris and machen were also below him when they met.
I can't see any of them beating a prime Liston...especially not a shot version of Louis.
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Old 06-08-2012, 04:57 PM   #62
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198 lbs.

Sure, Sonny's first 'three bouts' at the end of 1953, he scaled;
* 200
* 200
* 198

Just what does that mean,,,,,,,I have no idea.

Only thing I know, that he was 26 years of age, and maybe he was in the gym training hard,
to learn as much boxing skills as possible in a short period of time.
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Old 06-08-2012, 05:05 PM   #63
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Default Re: Liston vs Marciano

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How Old was Charles, Walcott and Moore?
How many fights did they have?
How many Wars did they have?
How many times had they been knocked down and knocked out?.
I wouldn't say they were exactly "Prime." Not shot fighters but not "prime".
 
Moore was at his zenith as a fighter. He beat the #1 and #2 heavyweights to get his shot. Charles knocked out two rated contenders to get his shot and was the next best heavyweight in the world at that time. Walcott was fantastic in the Marciano fight and was the champion. Hed had a long career but was in great shape, had evolved into a genuine ATG vetran fighter. Charles, Walcott and moore all blow folley and harris out of the water. All three were still ATG’s (and trying like mad to win) when knocked out by Marciano.
 
 
 
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Cleveland Williams was worthy. Knocked out once before but still in his prime. .
Name me one rated or decent fighter Williams beat before he met Liston. Willliams is so unworthy. Actualy worthless in ATG terms. Old joe louis in his last fight was more worthy as a contender.
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But yes, overall we could break down both their records.
In the end, a Prime Sonny Liston would be the biggest Challenge of Rocky's career. Liston was a natural 200+ pound HW, with Power in both hands, ATG Jab, Strong, and had very good boxing skills.
Liston would be tough. Very tough but marcianos pedigree outshines sonny. Sonnys advantages in height was an inch. Liston was not as big as Joe Louis (-still formidable, worthy contender when Rocky knocked him out) and was like Marciano a 1950s heavyweight not as big as people want to think he was.
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Old 06-08-2012, 05:17 PM   #64
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Default Re: Liston vs Marciano

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quote=choklab;13043739] 
Moore was at his zenith as a fighter. He beat the #1 and #2 heavyweights to get his shot. Charles knocked out two rated contenders to get his shot and was the next best heavyweight in the world at that time. Walcott was fantastic in the Marciano fight and was the champion. Hed had a long career but was in great shape, had evolved into a genuine ATG vetran fighter. Charles, Walcott and moore all blow folley and harris out of the water. All three were still ATG’s (and trying like mad to win) when knocked out by Marciano.
 

Moore was a LH. That's what he is going down in history as...a LH ATG. And he had lots of wear and tear. One of a kind with longevity but still had wear and tear.  
What Marciano did to him wasn't new. Others did it to Moore before Marciano got to him. And let's remember how quickly Patterson took out Moore just a year later.

Past prime Joe Louis knocked out Walcott years before Marciano did. Again, Marciano did nothing new.

Charles, another man that should be known as a LH ATG: Brutally knocked out by Walcott years before Marciano. Again, Marciano did nothing new.

Again: how old were each of these fighters, how many fights did they have, how many wars did they have, and how many times had they been knocked out? And then tell me they were still "Prime."
It's one thing to lose a fight, even be knocked out, but the amount of fights you had, the amount of wars you had, and your age (and I'm not just talking about birth age)...counts for a lot.


Quote:
Name me one rated or decent fighter Williams beat before he met Liston. Willliams is so unworthy. Actualy worthless in ATG terms. Old joe louis in his last fight was more worthy as a contender.
Louis was no longer good when he met Marciano. Even Marciano knew it. Even Lou Duva said so on "Ringside" and that's Marciano's boy.

Quote:
Liston would be tough. Very tough but marcianos pedigree outshines sonny. Sonnys advantages in height was an inch. Liston was not as big as Joe Louis (-still formidable, worthy contender when Rocky knocked him out) and was like Marciano a 1950s heavyweight not as big as people want to think he was.
It's a Good fight and Tough fight.

Joe was taller than Liston but not by much. And weight, if not similar, Liston had the slight edge. When Marciano faced Louis, he was over-weight. That's not the same Louis of the 1930's. That Louis would have beaten Marciano.
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Old 06-08-2012, 06:18 PM   #65
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Default Re: Liston vs Marciano

who was the best Liston beat, Sorry never was impressed with Big CAT at top level fighter or punchers...he was 31-1 when he was KO'd by Satterfield in 3. Who else Patterson who was dropped by 1st pro fight Pete Radamaker ....Just like a fighting dog smells the beast in another dog Liston would realize he is in with a serious guy. Sonny comes to fight with confidence and should be a good action fight while it lasted but I think Marciano gets inside with his murderous shots and the crouch makes him a tough target for Sonny.....I think it boils down to heart and stamina and a Marciano KO
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Old 06-08-2012, 06:20 PM   #66
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Default Re: Liston vs Marciano

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who was the best Liston beat
Biggest name is obviously Floyd Patterson.
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Old 06-08-2012, 06:45 PM   #67
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Default Re: Liston vs Marciano

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Originally Posted by Caelum View Post
 

Moore was a LH. That's what he is going down in history as...a LH ATG. And he had lots of wear and tear. One of a kind with longevity but still had wear and tear.  
What Marciano did to him wasn't new. Others did it to Moore before Marciano got to him. And let's remember how quickly Patterson took out Moore just a year later. .
Moore was still knocking out rated heavyweights as late as the 1960s. Big cat williams was not.

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Originally Posted by Caelum View Post
Charles, another man that should be known as a LH ATG: Brutally knocked out by Walcott years before Marciano. Again, Marciano did nothing new.

Again: how old were each of these fighters, how many fights did they have, how many wars did they have, and how many times had they been knocked out? And then tell me they were still "Prime."
It's one thing to lose a fight, even be knocked out, but the amount of fights you had, the amount of wars you had, and your age (and I'm not just talking about birth age)...counts for a lot. .
Walcott, charles and Moore all beat harris, folley and machen. In fact patterson, machen and harris, at the time Liston met them, had each been knocked out by the last world class fighters they met. This is not true of any Marciano title opponent. Moore was on a 40 fight win streak, was never better, was beating heavyweights. Even Joe louis was knocking out and beating a string of rated contenders when he met Marciano. Walcott had not been knocked out for 5 years and had cleaned out most of the post war contenders. Louis had not been knocked out since the 1930s! Their knockout defeats were not recent at all.


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Originally Posted by Caelum View Post
Louis was no longer good when he met Marciano. Even Marciano knew it. Even Lou Duva said so on "Ringside" and that's Marciano's boy. .
So what does that make big cat Williams? Old joe louis was beating rated fighters like bivins and savold. As well as new guys like brion. Willams pre Liston did not have wins as good. By a long chalk.



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Joe was taller than Liston but not by much. And weight, if not similar, Liston had the slight edge. When Marciano faced Louis, he was over-weight. That's not the same Louis of the 1930's. That Louis would have beaten Marciano.
How has Liston got a slight edge in size over Joe louis? sonny was shorter. Its negligible at worst isnt it? The 1930s Joe louis beats Liston, posibly marciano and most other ATG champions. No shame in that. Talking of size would the 1930s joe louis be any better if he was as heavy as hed been for Marciano? I don’t think so. If you are good enough you are big enough. And joe louis was always as big as liston age for age.

Last edited by choklab; 06-08-2012 at 07:43 PM.
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Old 06-08-2012, 06:51 PM   #68
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Default Re: Liston vs Marciano

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Biggest name is obviously Floyd Patterson.
and pattersons worst effort was against LIston both times. Lousy non effort just like liston aginst ali the second time. a one round blow out for any other fighter does not make it his best win. One round blow outs at world level only show that one guy never got going. they have as much to do with the loser being bad as the winner being good. is clays one rounder over Liston his best win? is rockys one rounder over walcott his best win? I credit Liston with beating patterson because he had to. I just dont think patterson turned up at all. he froze. Howard king survived until the 8th and 3rd round against the same liston that floyd met and king was not a better heavyweight than patterson. I dont know who floyd was sleeping with or what he was smoking but he just was not "floyd patterson" for either Liston fight. Thats not Listons fault. But it is floyds.

Last edited by choklab; 06-08-2012 at 07:51 PM.
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Old 06-08-2012, 07:13 PM   #69
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A couple of Sonny Liston bouts that can be looked at through 'sun glasses'.

The 'two bouts' with Cleveland Willimams.

Yes, big and strong, and a left hook like a wild-horse, but the 'Big Cat' was
a stiff, in the sense of mobility.

He took punches flush, and never learned the art of defense, such as rolling with the
punch, or slipping and sliding. In other words, he was there to be hit, and hit hard.

Floyd, completely froze, as Sonny was 'Super ****ed Off' in the 1st bout in Chicago.

Bout 2, Floyd just got caught with hard punches. His fight plan was all-wrong for
the rematch.
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Old 06-08-2012, 07:21 PM   #70
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Default Re: Liston vs Marciano

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Originally Posted by Senor Pepe' View Post
A couple of Sonny Liston bouts that can be looked at through 'sun glasses'.

The 'two bouts' with Cleveland Willimams.

Yes, big and strong, and a left hook like a wild-horse, but the 'Big Cat' was
a stiff, in the sense of mobility.

He took punches flush, and never learned the art of defense, such as rolling with the
punch, or slipping and sliding. In other words, he was there to be hit, and hit hard.

Floyd, completely froze, as Sonny was 'Super ****ed Off' in the 1st bout in Chicago.

Bout 2, Floyd just got caught with hard punches. His fight plan was all-wrong for
the rematch.
exactly. a one rounder "blow out" has as much to do with the loser being bad as the winner being good.

williams was exciting and looked a real monster against over matched no namers but as you say just did not cut it as a contender.

Last edited by choklab; 06-08-2012 at 07:47 PM.
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Old 06-08-2012, 09:37 PM   #71
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Liston was like Tyson...they both had the bully mentality...push you...they win...you push back and show them you're not afraid...you've got 'em...both were not tough mentally...Marciano would not be afraid of Liston...The Rock would out-gut Sonny...
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Old 06-08-2012, 10:22 PM   #72
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Liston was like Tyson...they both had the bully mentality...push you...they win...you push back and show them you're not afraid...you've got 'em...both were not tough mentally...Marciano would not be afraid of Liston...The Rock would out-gut Sonny...
True post and I agree
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Old 06-08-2012, 10:26 PM   #73
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Liston was like Tyson...they both had the bully mentality...push you...they win...you push back and show them you're not afraid...you've got 'em...both were not tough mentally...Marciano would not be afraid of Liston...The Rock would out-gut Sonny...
Let's see: A 5'11, 215 pound fighter in a bigger HW era, lots of pressure (especially given the boom of the media age), and at 20 years old, won the HW World Champion. Even went on to unify it against more experience fighters. Yup. Doesn't take much mental toughness to do that.

I posted an interview with Ribalta who said he wasn't scared of Tyson and still lost. Ruddock, a bigger fighter with lots of power, and also remember this is after Tyson left Rooney, his skills on the decline, and After his "invincibility" label was KO'd by Douglas... wasn't scared of Tyson and still lost. To make sure he got the fight, Ruddock actually reportedly went over to Tyson and grabbed his arm and demanded a fight after it fell through before. That's how not scared Ruddock was of Tyson.
In fact, in their fight, he hurt Tyson and Tyson somehow with his fragile little bully mind, fought back and still won by KO. Same happened to Bruno in their first fight. Tyson hurt, Tyson came back. Again, remember, Tyson was the smaller man.

Ribalta: "I was nervous but I didn’t fear him."
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Douglas:

First, look at this thread on what Tyson was like going into that fight.

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Remember, Tyson was 5'11, 220, going up against a motivated, in shape, 6'4, 230 pound athletic Highly ranked fighter with a long reach and power (according to McCall)... while not being well trained and still managed to get to round 10 despite getting his ass kicked from round 1. And, he still managed in-between that to land an uppercut on Douglas to knock him down. He never gave up. Even when stunned he kept fighting back throwing uppercut after uppercut while his back was on the ropes. Knocked down by a vicious power combo and still managed to stagger to his feet.
*
BoxingInsider: When did you first see the look of defeat etched on his face or in his…(eyes)?

James “Buster” Douglas: “(Cutting me off) I never saw defeat in Mike’s face, never. And that’s, ironically [laughs], in the 8th round, when I wanted to take a, like, reflect, like, Mike, look at this going on…BANG! He caught me with a shot. And that’s when I was like, Oh, better stay serious, because he’s focused. He was focused throughout.”

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Forget post-prison. He was gone by then.



Liston:
Yup. Another weak person. So weak he managed just enough strength to rise from poverty to get to the HW title.

In one of his fights, he was caught with his mouth open and his jaw was broken only to continue on until the end. So How isn't fighting with a broken Jaw mentally tough?

Did you hear the Chuck Wepner clip in that H.L. video?

9:48
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwUYR0n6eDA&hd=1[/ame]

Last edited by Caelum; 06-09-2012 at 01:07 AM.
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Old 06-08-2012, 10:34 PM   #74
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True post and I agree
I once asked a "notable" fighter (former) and now current "known" trainer about competition and the psychology of it: I asked him, as a fighter, when you are fighting against a fighter that has many losses, has been knocked down and even out, maybe even past his best...does that help you mentally while in the fight?
And he said.."ABSOLUTELY". It keeps you in the fight even when down because you know its been done before and you can do it.
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Old 06-08-2012, 10:41 PM   #75
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Default Re: Liston vs Marciano

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Moore was still knocking out rated heavyweights as late as the 1960s. Big cat williams was not.


Walcott, charles and Moore all beat harris, folley and machen. In fact patterson, machen and harris, at the time Liston met them, had each been knocked out by the last world class fighters they met. This is not true of any Marciano title opponent. Moore was on a 40 fight win streak, was never better, was beating heavyweights. Even Joe louis was knocking out and beating a string of rated contenders when he met Marciano. Walcott had not been knocked out for 5 years and had cleaned out most of the post war contenders. Louis had not been knocked out since the 1930s! Their knockout defeats were not recent at all.



So what does that make big cat Williams? Old joe louis was beating rated fighters like bivins and savold. As well as new guys like brion. Willams pre Liston did not have wins as good. By a long chalk.




How has Liston got a slight edge in size over Joe louis? sonny was shorter. Its negligible at worst isnt it? The 1930s Joe louis beats Liston, posibly marciano and most other ATG champions. No shame in that. Talking of size would the 1930s joe louis be any better if he was as heavy as hed been for Marciano? I don’t think so. If you are good enough you are big enough. And joe louis was always as big as liston age for age.
Charles, Moore, Walcott, Louis....all good fighters but past their peaks. Louis was certainly past it. Marciano even said Louis couldn't take a shot to the head anymore.

– Joe Louis couldn’t take a shot to the head any more.’ ‘He couldn’t take one on the button, Rocky!’
‘He couldn’t take a punch anywhere on the head any more. Even high on the head.

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Moore was past his best and even at his best, had been beaten several times and knocked out. It's been done before many times. Patterson actually knocked him out in quicker fashion just a year later. But yes, an ATG LH who is in the HOF.

The fact that a past prime Louis was rated that high and winning also says something about the era. He was Past his best when he fought Marciano. That's a fact. He was past his best when he fought Walcott and still managed to knock him out quicker years before Marciano. And Marciano was actually struggling with Walcott until the final punch.

Charles was also past his peak. Still good but past his peak. And Marciano called Charles his toughest fight. That first fight was something else. Good fight.

And again, how many fights did they have?
how many times were they in wars?
how many times had they been knocked out?
How old were they? Not just birth age, but wear and tear years? let's estimate.


Charles, Walcott, Louis, and Moore were busy beating the **** out of each other over the years before they laced them up with Marciano.

Marciano is a great fighter, specifically under 200 pounds...one of my favorite actually, but he will be going up against a natural 200+ pound HW, who is bigger and stronger and a better pure boxer with one of if not the greatest Jab in HW history. With that kind of Reach, I wonder how much it troubles Marciano given an Old Louis had his moments with his own Jab. And lets not forget Liston was a bruiser to the body, could throw the left hook and hammer HRs with his right.

It's a good fight though but I just don't see Marciano beating Liston.


Quick note: Don Florio, Patterson's trainer, had this to say:

"I've trained lots of old guys. I trained Joe Walcott[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]. They get tired"

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Quote:
How has Liston got a slight edge in size over Joe louis? sonny was shorter. Its negligible at worst isnt it? The 1930s Joe louis beats Liston, posibly marciano and most other ATG champions. No shame in that. Talking of size would the 1930s joe louis be any better if he was as heavy as hed been for Marciano? I don’t think so. If you are good enough you are big enough. And joe louis was always as big as liston age for age.
Louis had a slight edge in height but Liston has a slight edge in weight. Could Louis have easily put on weight and filled out? Absolutely. He actually had a good size frame.




In the end, Marciano was a good fighter, specifically under 200 pounds. And he handled his business in the era he was in. Not a long reign but still a good reign given how he handled things. He held the title with respect and did his best. That's all you can ask. And that I respect. It's tough to be a fighter. Not many can do it. It's tough to be a Champion. Even fewer can do it.


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