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Old 06-08-2012, 10:17 PM   #16
Manassa
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Default Re: The importance of skeletal structure, musculature and general physiology...

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Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
There is not a correlation being drawn between the two sports but a challenge to this "eye test" mentality that asserts it can by physiogamy draw conclusions on an athlete's performance.

I say, total *******s.
That's alright then because as you know I find most of your posts total *******s also, including your made up words
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Old 06-08-2012, 10:20 PM   #17
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Default Re: The importance of skeletal structure, musculature and general physiology...

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That's alright then because as you know I find most of your posts total *******s also, including your made up words
Made up words, sir? Please to point to such.
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Old 06-08-2012, 10:23 PM   #18
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Default Re: The importance of skeletal structure, musculature and general physiology...

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Made up words, sir? Please to point to such.
I shouldn't have said made up words. I should have said absurdly outdated words that won't get you any points on a scrabble board.
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Old 06-08-2012, 10:28 PM   #19
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Default Re: The importance of skeletal structure, musculature and general physiology...

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I shouldn't have said made up words. I should have said absurdly outdated words that won't get you any points on a scrabble board.
Hah!

Seriously, I know where you are coming from but the eye test only works within a very soft precision on these matters. What is not visual is muscle composition, stamina, heart, reflexes, ring IQ, focus, fast twitch explosion, slow twitch power retention.... A whole ****ing boat load.

The proof is in the pudding. The pudding happens in the ring.
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Old 06-08-2012, 10:41 PM   #20
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Default Re: The importance of skeletal structure, musculature and general physiology...

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Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
Hah!

Seriously, I know where you are coming from but the eye test only works within a very soft precision on these matters. What is not visual is muscle composition, stamina, heart, reflexes, ring IQ, focus, fast twitch explosion, slow twitch power retention.... A whole ****ing boat load.

The proof is in the pudding. The pudding happens in the ring.
Frank Bruno had enormous stomach muscles.

I know there's loads you can't see, and I acknowledged this. Don't worry, I'm not going to start betting all my money on the fighter with the smoother orbital bones and more aerodynamic hair for faster weaving... Only to a limited extent would I look back at a proven fighter and use this kind of theory to predict a hypothetical performance. I think Baer versus Peter would turn into a slanging match almost entirely devoid of class and could be a better subject than a real boxing match between stylists.

I'll concede the word 'importance' shouldn't be in the title, but it is something that's not much discussed.
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Old 06-09-2012, 01:01 AM   #21
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Default Re: The importance of skeletal structure, musculature and general physiology...

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As far as I know, bones will reinforce themselves when subjected to progressive minor stress (such as weight lifting) even as an adult, so I presume on a growing child it will have a much bigger influence and could mean the difference between someone being built big or small. Others are naturally heavy set.
A more well put breakdown of what I was trying to get at (And what my father believes).
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Old 06-09-2012, 02:16 AM   #22
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Default Re: The importance of skeletal structure, musculature and general physiology...

Great Thread, very interesting.

I tend to agree with your thoughts , I have a small strelital strutre but since I have trained on and off since I was a teenager I am still strong. I am good at own body weight exercises due to my muscle / bone weight ratio but not as good as lifting external weight, where some of my mates that have a larger struture can lift a fair bit more weights than me but cannot do a pull up due to having a higher bone / musle weight ratio.

As I have ok punching tech' and a have trained before I am a strong puncher (for a non boxer) but due to my small struture, long neck, small thin hands and slender bones I am at a disavantge to smoeone with bigger heavy hands , stocky neck, thick wrist and that has more stamina.

If I took up boxing my my small , thin hands would be broken every few fights and my long neck would get me ko'd. What hope would I have vs Rocky or Pacman who have baseball bats for arms. Pacman's forarms are as big as his biceps and has huge wrists. If you see a bloke with big strong hands and big forearems whatch out, even if the rest of his body/ frame is smaller , these guys can normally pack a punch.
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Old 06-09-2012, 02:39 AM   #23
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Default Re: The importance of skeletal structure, musculature and general physiology...

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There are simply way too many variables to even guess at whether someone will make a good fighter or not let alone what kind of style and tactics will be best suited for him.

Just in muscle composition regarding punching power alone, which is invisible to the naked eye, you have fiber type, firing rate, firing speed, recruitment of fibers, length of fibers, elasticity of tendons, synapses thickness, insertion points, cp levels, just to name a few...

For stamina, you have heart size, pumping strength, lung capacity, lung oxygen absorption rate, red blood cell oxygen capacity, capillary density in muscles, lactic acid removal rate, just to name a few...

Some are innate, some can be trained to world class levels.

There is way too much stuff going on to be able to take even a close look at someone, and have an inkling of an idea of that person's abilities.
very good post .
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Old 06-09-2012, 07:13 AM   #24
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Default Re: The importance of skeletal structure, musculature and general physiology...

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Not to come off all defensive but I think I acknowledged most rebuttals already at various points in my post. I did specifically state in an attempt to defend myself in advance that you cannot predict how a fighter will perform based on his observable traits alone. My stance is that you can, with hindsight (a career's worth of performances) use physical observations to reason how a fighter was so strong, or what contributed to him being fragile, and so on.

I think you could tell more, you have to really know the human body.

I'm going to leave this now because it could get really complicated and I wish I never started it!

P.S. - McVey, I don't think you quite grasped the subject this time.
Looking back I think you're right. No offence intended , [it's nice to see you posting again], but the subject ,from Seamus's point of view appears to be." How Much Long Winded Verbiage Can I Manage To Insert Here To Impress Other Posters With My Erudition?".
From Your Corner," "Much Ado About Nothing". As old Bill S once said.
Bottom line it's two guys , having a fight.
ps How do you spell pretentious?
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Old 06-09-2012, 07:28 AM   #25
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Default Re: The importance of skeletal structure, musculature and general physiology...

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If two men of equal ability but unequal weight fight each other, the one with a significant weight advantage is usually going to win, however, this isn't always the case. Knowing what I know now, I can see that it's mostly the skeletal frame that is the pivotal point and not muscle or fat.
Based on what? Boxers of all kinds of skeletal frames have success. What type of skeletal frame are you suggesting is most conjusive to boxing?

You're also throwing out muscle as a variable when muscle (not size of muscle but muscle) is responsible for the speed and explosive nature of any movement

This rationale in it's essence is flawed.

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Originally Posted by Manassa View Post
A fighter with a small skeletal structure and lots of muscle can (note: not always) struggle with stamina - perhaps his chest cavity, lungs and heart are not big enough naturally to supply his large muscles with blood and oxygen efficiently - but he might also be very fast, especially if his hands and lower forearms are disproportionate to his shoulders or core. Small bones propelled by powerful muscles*.
Your completely disregarding the type of muscle in this statement, it's very general. Certain muscle groups are more important to boxing than others: ie the core/midsection, shoulders, legs and others are less so such as biceps (although biceps in themselves help the recoil of a punch)

There is some truth though, muscles in themselves do burn up energy, the more powerful a movement the more energy it takes up and therefore more powerful athletes throwing bigger punches tire quicker. This is pretty irrelevant though if the more powerful boxer takes the stamina kings head straight off with 1 punch

But in turn many fighters with a large amount of muscle have very good stamina. Klitchkos been an obvious example of 240lb men throwing 90punches a round with sound technique

Holyfield has a smaller skeletal frame with finer bone structure, massive amounts of muscle yet is 1 of the fittest boxers of all time

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Originally Posted by Manassa View Post
In contrast to this, a fighter may have a large skeletal structure yet retain a low fat percentage and a smaller yet more sustainable musculature. Said fighter may possess more stamina, agility and therefore longer lasting technique throughout rounds, without suffering too much of a size deficit, or at least not one that would see him overpowered. There is a balance.
There is indeed a balance and your assumption that he doesn't get overpowered is just that, an assumption

Skeletal structure has nothing to do with stamina, in fact a heavier bone structure is more taxing on the cardiovascular system.

You also ignore the fact that in boxing the smaller man get's tired quicker because he has to do more to offset the bigger stronger man


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Originally Posted by Manassa View Post
In the case of Baer versus Peter, I would expect a naturally durable, hard hitting and proportioned Baer to start beating on a comparatively stocky looking Peter in the late rounds due to a difference in stamina, and not much of one in power. That said, for boxing in general, I would favour a more lightly muscled fighter over a bulkier fighter if they had a similarly sized skeletal structure.
I'd pick Baer too, but I don't see it as a beating though really and Peter seems to have the much thicker bone structure
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Old 06-09-2012, 10:07 AM   #26
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Default Re: The importance of skeletal structure, musculature and general physiology...

People are picking me out on things that I've acknowledged. The post was rushed and I jumped from paragraph to paragraph and covered myself in most places, but because there might be a paragraph standing on its own without defence of a certain point, it looks like I'm ignorant to that fact.

Quote:
*This, of course, also largely depends on an amalgamation of other factors including
Quote:
This is to say that you cannot positively look at a fighter and tell how well he will perform
Quote:
Exceptions to the rule? There are plenty.
And so on... I, too, read a paragraph and then think of a rebuttal to that before reading the rest of it, but down to my messy structure some things may be missed. I don't consider myself in the dark on this subject, just a pusher of the notion that fighters' attributes don't just pop up out of thin air, there is normally a physical factor that can be observable to a limited extent.
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Old 06-09-2012, 11:55 AM   #27
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Default Re: The importance of skeletal structure, musculature and general physiology...

Originally Posted by Manassa
As far as I know, bones will reinforce themselves when subjected to progressive minor stress (such as weight lifting) even as an adult, so I presume on a growing child it will have a much bigger influence and could mean the difference between someone being built big or small. Others are naturally heavy set.


Jesus Christ, talk to a pediatrician, will you? Serious weight lifting affects the growth of children and young adolescents NEGATIVELY. Their bone ends and growth plates are not done forming and the stress and trauma actually stunt this growth. Where do you get this stuff?
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Old 06-09-2012, 11:56 AM   #28
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Default Re: The importance of skeletal structure, musculature and general physiology...

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
ps How do you spell pretentious?
S - I - M - P.

Hope that helps.
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Old 06-09-2012, 05:59 PM   #29
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Default Re: The importance of skeletal structure, musculature and general physiology...

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Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
Originally Posted by Manassa
As far as I know, bones will reinforce themselves when subjected to progressive minor stress (such as weight lifting) even as an adult, so I presume on a growing child it will have a much bigger influence and could mean the difference between someone being built big or small. Others are naturally heavy set.


Jesus Christ, talk to a pediatrician, will you? Serious weight lifting affects the growth of children and young adolescents NEGATIVELY. Their bone ends and growth plates are not done forming and the stress and trauma actually stunt this growth. Where do you get this stuff?
What is your problem, seriously? You act like I'm writing a ****ing book that will encourage parents to start shoving protein shakes down their kids' necks and making them do a set of deadlifts before bed time.

I said I presumed so, meaning that I could be wrong, though I'm not so sure it doesn't come down to something as simple as depending on the individual.

I've always liked to put a bit of effort into threads, remaining mostly neutral but pushing an idea that's floating around. I won't bother from now on. Too many people who like to sit back, pick their arguments very carefully and talk to you like a **** while never putting their neck on the line. We can all do that, it's easy.
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Old 06-09-2012, 06:08 PM   #30
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Default Re: The importance of skeletal structure, musculature and general physiology...

Boxing seems to defy all kinds of logic when it comes to the ideal type of physiology. There are too many factors to take into account unlike in more restricted sports.

There have been thin welterweights who hit like heavyweights and muscled up heavyweights who hit like featherweights.

There have also been featherweights with thin necks who could take a great amount of punishment along with heavyweights with large necks and legs who couldn't withstand a punch on the chin from a smaller man.

Through research you could probably make the case of a certain physical build winning over another but there will always prove to be exceptions, making it difficult to prove anything conclusively either way.
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