Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-15-2013, 05:42 PM   #1
he grant
Historian/Film Maker
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 7,529
vCash: 1000
Default Did Louis EVER learn to keep his left up after a jab ?

I rewatched Louis/Marciano today on MSG in it's entirety and putting aside how slow Louis looked and how shot his legs were I came away shocked with how often he dropped his left after a jab and was nailed by rights from Marciano .. now it is well known that Schmeling exploited this same weakness in the first Louis fight and this was something that Louis was supposed to have improved upon but watching this film it is unreal to see how often he was hit ,,, was this simply age or what ?
he grant is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 06-15-2013, 05:54 PM   #2
McGrain
Diamond Dog
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 37,037
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Did Louis EVER learn to keep his left up after a jab ?

Did Sugar Ray? Did Benny Leonard? Did Willie Pep?
McGrain is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2013, 06:03 PM   #3
john garfield
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,914
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Did Louis EVER learn to keep his left up after a jab ?

In the return with Schmeling, he kept his left up behind his shoulder, crowded Max 'n pistoned double 'n triple jabs driving him to the ropes.
john garfield is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2013, 06:29 PM   #4
he grant
Historian/Film Maker
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 7,529
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Did Louis EVER learn to keep his left up after a jab ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Did Sugar Ray? Did Benny Leonard? Did Willie Pep?
Leonard obviously did because he was known for actually being physically weak and weak chinned and excelled because he did not get hit .. Pep clearly was close to unhittable in his prime ... Robinson at welter as well .. I disagree with the point you are trying to make .... Louis was tagged time and again , early, by a much smaller, short armed guy .. I haven't watched many full Louis bouts but this is worth looking into ...
he grant is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2013, 06:42 PM   #5
McGrain
Diamond Dog
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 37,037
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Did Louis EVER learn to keep his left up after a jab ?

All of those guys wore their lefts low and returned them low. Joe never "lerned to keep his left up" because nobody was tyring to teach him to do so. His left hand was for parrying, not for guarding. Guarding was ineffective because of the small gloves. Instead, fighters moved the line of attack or attacked to eliminate the line of attack.

The answer to your quesiton is "no." Nor did Max Schmeling, James Braddock etc.

Leonard wore his hands lower than Louis, if anything. Did you say he was weak chinned and known for being weak chinned?
McGrain is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2013, 07:23 PM   #6
LittleRed
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Yoknapatawpha
Posts: 3,214
vCash: 475
Default Re: Did Louis EVER learn to keep his left up after a jab ?

I assume that was sarcasm.
LittleRed is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2013, 11:12 AM   #7
he grant
Historian/Film Maker
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 7,529
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Did Louis EVER learn to keep his left up after a jab ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
All of those guys wore their lefts low and returned them low. Joe never "lerned to keep his left up" because nobody was tyring to teach him to do so. His left hand was for parrying, not for guarding. Guarding was ineffective because of the small gloves. Instead, fighters moved the line of attack or attacked to eliminate the line of attack.

The answer to your quesiton is "no." Nor did Max Schmeling, James Braddock etc.

Leonard wore his hands lower than Louis, if anything. Did you say he was weak chinned and known for being weak chinned?
Keeping your hand low and getting hit time and again are two different things and you know that from my post but excluded the fact in yours (then again, why bother w details ) ... he was never taught and had no one ? Seriously ? That was what Blackburn ( ever hear of him? ) worked on most after he was crushed by Schmeling , speaking of whom along w Braddock are never in conversation about top heavyweights of all time ... you can say the same about Tony Galento ..

Benny Leonard , physically weak and with a questionable chin, absolutely and stated many times over ... he excelled in spite of his weaknesses.
he grant is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2013, 11:27 AM   #8
McGrain
Diamond Dog
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 37,037
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Did Louis EVER learn to keep his left up after a jab ?

Yes i've heard of Blackburn. What don't you understand about what I'm writing? Blackburn wasn't teaching him to hold his hand high after the jab - almost everyone in the era dropped their hand after a jab. Fighters used other methods to prevent the counter right. I've already written all of this though.

It has nothing to do with ATG heavies, it is about his contemporaries. The point I am making to you is that almost nobody had any interest in achieving what you are talking about. It was never really a question of lifting his hand, that was never considered a real possibility outside of his learning to parry that punch.

These fighters didn't wear their guards where you are talking about, it didn't happen.



Can you give me any examples of where people stated over and over again that Leonard had a weak chin and what it was based upon?
McGrain is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2013, 11:48 AM   #9
Dempsey08
newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 38
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Did Louis EVER learn to keep his left up after a jab ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Fighters used other methods to prevent the counter right. I've already written all of this though.
Could you expand on this, Or link to it being discussed? It sounds pretty interesting.
Dempsey08 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2013, 12:18 PM   #10
McGrain
Diamond Dog
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 37,037
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Did Louis EVER learn to keep his left up after a jab ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dempsey08 View Post
Could you expand on this, Or link to it being discussed? It sounds pretty interesting.
I think the easiest way for you to expand on what i'm saying is to spend even just five minutes even watching some other heavyweights form the time. Linking here isn't possible any more, but all the guys i've listed usually drop their left after jabbing. Boxers of the era wore their hands low to repel bodypunches, parry, and direct offence. It's all on film. It's actually one of the most remarked upon differences between eras.
McGrain is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2013, 01:33 PM   #11
Dempsey08
newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 38
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Did Louis EVER learn to keep his left up after a jab ?

Aah okay, like head offline towards the rear hand, with the lead shoulder raised to deflect right hands?
Dempsey08 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2013, 01:38 PM   #12
McGrain
Diamond Dog
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 37,037
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Did Louis EVER learn to keep his left up after a jab ?

Sometimes, some guys crowd behind their jab, others bob, whatever it might be. Some guys do use a high guard like when they move in or something, maybe trying to bait the body, but this idea that Louis was defective because he didn't "learn" to keep his hand high after the jab is a modern notion, mostly.

Louis just wasn't very aware of punches coming back at him after the jab, he didn't try to slip or parry or whatever. I mean really, show me a fighter from that era who doesn't drop his hand after a jab? Guys like Tommy Loughran, all the definitive technicians for the thirties, none of them had these high hands. The smaller gloves meant they were easy to split, corner, whatever. The idea that a high technical guard would protect you from top-line professional punches isn't one that developed around these gloves. Look at the size of gloves now, or in the seventies, see the difference.
McGrain is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2013, 01:47 PM   #13
john garfield
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,914
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Did Louis EVER learn to keep his left up after a jab ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Sometimes, some guys crowd behind their jab, others bob, whatever it might be. Some guys do use a high guard like when they move in or something, maybe trying to bait the body, but this idea that Louis was defective because he didn't "learn" to keep his hand high after the jab is a modern notion, mostly.

Louis just wasn't very aware of punches coming back at him after the jab, he didn't try to slip or parry or whatever. I mean really, show me a fighter from that era who doesn't drop his hand after a jab? Guys like Tommy Loughran, all the definitive technicians for the thirties, none of them had these high hands. The smaller gloves meant they were easy to split, corner, whatever. The idea that a high technical guard would protect you from top-line professional punches isn't one that developed around these gloves. Look at the size of gloves now, or in the seventies, see the difference.
Excellent savvy point, Mc
john garfield is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2013, 02:58 PM   #14
he grant
Historian/Film Maker
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 7,529
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Did Louis EVER learn to keep his left up after a jab ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Sometimes, some guys crowd behind their jab, others bob, whatever it might be. Some guys do use a high guard like when they move in or something, maybe trying to bait the body, but this idea that Louis was defective because he didn't "learn" to keep his hand high after the jab is a modern notion, mostly.

Louis just wasn't very aware of punches coming back at him after the jab, he didn't try to slip or parry or whatever. I mean really, show me a fighter from that era who doesn't drop his hand after a jab? Guys like Tommy Loughran, all the definitive technicians for the thirties, none of them had these high hands. The smaller gloves meant they were easy to split, corner, whatever. The idea that a high technical guard would protect you from top-line professional punches isn't one that developed around these gloves. Look at the size of gloves now, or in the seventies, see the difference.
Interesting, three responses ... seem slightly flustered .. personally do not place Leonard who peaked in the early 20's and Loughran ( late 20's) with the 51 version of Louis as of the same era .. .. when did the era of not catching punches with one's face commence ? 52 - 90 ?

McGrains lecture series ( and some interesting but generalized and debatable points aside ) aside, my initial question remains the same one and I'll rephrase it so it will require no spin ... Was Louis always a sucker for a right hand ?
he grant is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2013, 02:59 PM   #15
he grant
Historian/Film Maker
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 7,529
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Did Louis EVER learn to keep his left up after a jab ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by john garfield View Post
Excellent savvy point, Mc
It might or might not be a savvy point John but in reality it is being made to split hairs and not directly respond to the question the thread was initiated about ..
he grant is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:46 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013