Ali-Gift Decisions?

[Senor Pepe']

Gifts,,,,

There could be several, but 'debated' decisions;

vs. Alonzo Johnson
vs. Doug Jones
vs. Ken Norton II
vs. Ken Norton III
vs. Jimmy Young

[RockyJim]

Norton got robbed in 1976...one of the sports writers for one of the

[RockyJim]

Norton got robbed at Yankee Stadium in 1976...one of the NY papers said:"If Ali won that fight last night...then the Japanese won WWII"...he won some of those fights because of who he was...not because of what he did in the ring on a given night...he could get pounded while lying against the ropes for 3 minutes...and he'd win that round on 2 of the judges cards!!!

[red cobra]

Originally Posted by mcvey

Arthur Mercante is generally acknowledged as one of the great referees, Harold Lederman was a vastly experienced judge who now does colour commentary ,I'm not familiar with the other judge. What it boils down to is that three experienced men watched the fight from the best sets in the house, ,they then gave their verdict on it, you watched it from where ? Because you disagree with the verdict they are gifts? That is asinine, no close fight is a gift / robbery,be it Hagler/Leonard, Khan /Peterson who ever. No I don't care for Young's style he got what he deserved in his close fights because he did not have it in him to close the show and go for it,he was Mr Negative personified.
Ali WAS old ,slow, and confused, and a prime Young did not have the ambition ,desire/ balls ,call it what you will, to put the decision beyond doubt. That's why Ali was champ 3 times ,and Young was just another decent fighter, who underperformed in his most important fights, and ended up as a foot note.

Regarding the 3rd Norton fight, you might take some comfort from this quote, though I cannot vouch for its veracity.


KEN CRIED FOR YEARS ABOUT DECISION
During one last photo op, Ali leans over to Norton and says. “That third fight, I think you got it, champ!” With those words, the weight that came off Norton’s shoulders, hitting the floor so hard it sounded like falling concrete. Ken’s eyes lit up like you wouldn’t believe. Reaching over, grabbing Ali, I thought Norton was suffering from some type of emotional release. Yeah, I know he beat the guy that beat the guy, didn’t get the call, but here was Ali acknowledging the fact that Ken was right all along, he had beaten Ali!

McVey, as usual, you state your case very eloquently. I respect your erudition regarding most matters concerning boxing. I just feel that however unpopular and atypical with the standard in which we tend to measure greatness in most fighters..character and stylewise, Jimmy Young was, for a relatively short period in his career, a very skilled, original and adept negative denfensive master, and he truly did bedevil George Foreman, Ron Lyle and In my opinion, Muhammad Ali and Kenny Norton. He deserved to win vs the latter two as much as he did against the former two.
As for Ali, he probably had to live with himself in admitting to Norton that he did indeed deserve to lose that third fight. Norton sure deserved it. It's a shame that both he and Young had to contend with not only fighting Ali, but fighting the officials as well.

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by red cobra

McVey, as usual, you state your case very eloquently. I respect your erudition regarding most matters concerning boxing. I just feel that however unpopular and atypical with the standard in which we tend to measure greatness in most fighters..character and stylewise, Jimmy Young was, for a relatively short period in his career, a very skilled, original and adept negative denfensive master, and he truly did bedevil George Foreman, Ron Lyle and In my opinion, Muhammad Ali and Kenny Norton. He deserved to win vs the latter two as much as he did against the former two.
As for Ali, he probably had to live with himself in admitting to Norton that he did indeed deserve to lose that third fight. Norton sure deserved it. It's a shame that both he and Young had to contend with not only fighting Ali, but fighting the officials as well.

Sorry ,for me Young was a stinker ,only saw him look decent once ,and that was from ringside , he was past his brief best, but he made John L Gardner look like an oaf.If memory serves me right, he also floored Gardner on the way to a comfortable decision that would be at Wembley 1979.

[Webbiano]

Originally Posted by RockyJim

Norton got robbed at Yankee Stadium in 1976...one of the NY papers said:"If Ali won that fight last night...then the Japanese won WWII"...he won some of those fights because of who he was...not because of what he did in the ring on a given night...he could get pounded while lying against the ropes for 3 minutes...and he'd win that round on 2 of the judges cards!!!

It's sickening if you ask me. One judge didn't even give Foreman a round against Ali. Ali was treated like a god in the ring by judges and referees

[Stevie G]

Originally Posted by red cobra

[/b]
Stevie, I admire your understatement here in descibing FF's views as "eccentric"..I'll follow suit and leave it at that. I was going to use a stronger adjective and and skewer Frank a bit, but I like your style and I think understatement is most effective

Great minds think alike,Cobra

[Stevie G]

Originally Posted by frankenfrank

4d guests / new users reading this thread , take in2 consideration that about 80% of Stevie G's post count , and i m trying 2b conservative with my speculation here , r Ali related . Is he a real poster who lacks agenda / foul motives and comes here 2 learn ? at least i don't think so .

Frankie,I'm another who likes your posts. As well as being very entertaining,I enjoy the debate that arises from them. I still think however,that your dislike of Ali colours your judgement about some of his fights. Like Johnmaff,I make no bones about my admiration and affection for Ali,but I look upon his performances, and all other fighters ones,fairly. I would have had no problem at all about Jimmy Young and Ken Norton (third fight) getting the nod. Your views on the Chuvalo fight are,as Johnmaff says though,are simply ludicrous.

[frankenfrank]

Originally Posted by Stevie G

Frankie,I'm another who likes your posts. As well as being very entertaining,I enjoy the debate that arises from them. I still think however,that your dislike of Ali colours your judgement about some of his fights. Like Johnmaff,I make no bones about my admiration and affection for Ali,but I look upon his performances, and all other fighters ones,fairly. I would have had no problem at all about Jimmy Young and Ken Norton (third fight) getting the nod. Your views on the Chuvalo fight are,as Johnmaff says though,are simply ludicrous.

My views on d Chuvalo fight r based on :
1) watching them and having d 1st fight a draw after trying with all my might 2 give Ali rds in which it could b argued that he did more damage in
2) D known fact that Ali was hospitalized and peed blood at least after d 1st , if not d 2nd also .

D 1 who did d bigger damage is d winner , needless (but not here) 2 mention that he even did that damage while obeying d rules of d sport .

[red cobra]

Originally Posted by Stevie G

Great minds think alike,Cobra

[johnmaff36]

Originally Posted by frankenfrank

My views on d Chuvalo fight r based on :
1) watching them and having d 1st fight a draw after trying with all my might 2 give Ali rds in which it could b argued that he did more damage in
2) D known fact that Ali was hospitalized and peed blood at least after d 1st , if not d 2nd also .

D 1 who did d bigger damage is d winner , needless (but not here) 2 mention that he even did that damage while obeying d rules of d sport .

So, going by your no2 here, do you think Ali beat Frazier in FOTC because Joe spent a lot lot longer in hospital than Ali?

[red cobra]

Originally Posted by johnmaff36

So, going by your no2 here, do you think Ali beat Frazier in FOTC because Joe spent a lot lot longer in hospital than Ali?

You're following the logic here johnmaff36!!

[round15]

Ali vs Norton III and Ali vs Jimmy Young were pure robberies. Young out-boxed Ali, plain and simple but was shafted by the judges. In the third fight with Norton, there aren't enough rounds to justify Ali winning the fight. Norton got the better of him the entire night in what I consider as bad a robbery as Lewis vs Holyfield I.

The Doug Jones fight was controversial but I wouldn't call it a robbery. The decision could have gone either way. Against Frazier in the rematch, Ali did his best to pile up points and land enough punches that barely bothered Frazier. He did a lot more holding and hugging that should have cost him the fight. His holding was excessive against Frazier and only his name kept Perez from deducting points. Ali did have Frazier hurt in the second round of the rematch but I don't think he would have finished him.

[johnmaff36]

Originally Posted by frankenfrank

U weren't a doctor in that hospital Ali visited after Chuvalo , were u ?
and yet even surer , u didn't treat Chuvalo after their fight .

and regarding your other post , rd 1 was a 10-8 4 Jones , because only d ropes kept Ali up in it , and besides , 2 fit other viewer's taste , Jones clearly showed clear domination in that rd , and there were more than a few rds i'd call even in this fight , so a narrow Jones win it should have been , under fair judges that is .

Lets even say your right here, "A NARROW win for Jones" as you put it. To me that indicates a close fight so whoever wins it aint exactly a gift then is it?

As for the first part of your post, no i wasnt a doctor at that hospital, but then again, neither were you

[frankenfrank]

Originally Posted by johnmaff36

So, going by your no2 here, do you think Ali beat Frazier in FOTC because Joe spent a lot lot longer in hospital than Ali?

interesting question . A case was made 4 it , but not by myself .
Whenever KDs occur , i go with d winner by KD count , b/c if it was a real fight then he was d winner . Especially if he had that Wilfredo Gomez mentality .
So , according 2 myself , Frazier won Frazier vs Ali #1 .
But , since Ali scored no KDs against Chuvalo , and was even far from it , i go by d man who did more damage , and that man was George Chuvalo .

Originally Posted by johnmaff36

Lets even say your right here, "A NARROW win for Jones" as you put it. To me that indicates a close fight so whoever wins it aint exactly a gift then is it?

As for the first part of your post, no i wasnt a doctor at that hospital, but then again, neither were you

Jones did more damage and was closer 2 stop Ali than vice versa and technically did score a KD (only ropes kept Ali up in rd #1) .

Regarding d doctors , i don't ignore what they knew , like u do .