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Old 06-15-2012, 05:47 PM   #46
Nightcrawler
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey says Max Baer was possibly the GOAT

I get the point he's making

I've seen argument before: Joe Frazier said "The greatest fighter I ever saw with my own two eyes was Eric Crumble". Do you know more than Joe Frazier??? I thought not...

Boxers, trainers, promoters etc. opinion's are JUST opinions. Not gospel and no more valid than their knowledge, experience and objectivity dictates. Frankly many boxers make for shitty historians so I certainly don't count their opinions more or less valid than many on the forum.
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Old 06-15-2012, 05:48 PM   #47
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey says Max Baer was possibly the GOAT

Comments always have an angle. It's why I don't understand the dependence on them by some when there's the cold hard evidence of ring records and achievements to consider.
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Old 06-15-2012, 05:53 PM   #48
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey says Max Baer was possibly the GOAT

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Originally Posted by manbearpig View Post
Comments always have an angle. It's why I don't understand the dependence on them by some when there's the cold hard evidence of ring records and achievements to consider.
Think of it as a three pronged approach!
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Old 06-15-2012, 05:54 PM   #49
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey says Max Baer was possibly the GOAT

It's not any sort of ****ing mystery what I'm getting at I would have thought. Hardly a Christopher Nolan piece or shit.

Loads of people on this forum use quotes from 'experts' to back up their agendas. The comments themselves will always have an angle, and the people using them again from an angle just skews the perspective to all **** and I just think, why?

We can all agree on who fought who and what their achievements were. It's a much straighter line towards an answer compared to all the criss cross weaving that has to be done to base your rankings on opinions.


What someone said is a lot less influential than what someone did. It's the same in every other area I'd imagine, so why not here? Someone probably won't win a Nobel Peace Prize for saying they could cure for cancer, but they would get one for doing it.
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Old 06-15-2012, 05:58 PM   #50
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey says Max Baer was possibly the GOAT

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It's not any sort of ****ing mystery what I'm getting at I would have thought. Hardly a Christopher Nolan piece of shit.

Loads of people on this forum use quotes from 'experts' to back up their agendas. The comments themselves will always have an angle, and the people using them again from an angle just skew the perspective to all **** and I just think, why?

We can all agree on who fought who and what their achievements were. It's a straight line towards an answer instead of all the criss cross weaving that has to be done to base your rankings on opinions.


What someone said is a lot less influential than what someone did. It's the same in every other area I'd imagine, so why not here? Someone probably won't win a Nobel Peace Prize for saying they could cure for cancer, but they would get one for doing it.
So your argument is that we should rate fighters primarily on ring records.

That would more than favour the old timers.

For example, Roy Jones would not be close to Harry Greb's best opponent going into the fight.
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Old 06-15-2012, 06:00 PM   #51
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey says Max Baer was possibly the GOAT

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So your argument is that we should rate fighters primarily on ring records.

That would more than favour the old timers.

For example, Roy Jones would not be close to Harry Greb's best opponent going into the fight.
Yep, wthout a doubt. And you would get no argument from me on Greb versus Roy Jones. Not at all.
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Old 06-15-2012, 06:32 PM   #52
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey says Max Baer was possibly the GOAT

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Your proof that all comments made on fighters by peers/'experts' aren't like this, is?
Everything anyone ever said regarding such things as "greatest fighter", "pound for pound", "greatest I've seen" etc. is bollocks.
It's hyperbole, pure and simple.



And that's especially true of everything we've ever seen written on these forums. ATG ratings etc.


^ And this post is about the truest thing you'll ever read here. Seriously.
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Old 06-16-2012, 01:04 PM   #53
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey says Max Baer was possibly the GOAT

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Dempsey was the cornerman the night Baer fought Louis. Baer had awesome talent, noway goat, not at all.

Right. Dempsey was working with Baer. When someone is working with a fighter their comments as to how great they are or can be are often feed to the press to generate interest. A third party opinion about a fighter who has no horse in the race means much more.

Baer had great power, but little desire and had modest ring skills. He was an underachiever, but even on his best nights it would be hard to make a case from him being an all time top 10 heavyweight.


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Old 06-17-2012, 06:23 AM   #54
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey says Max Baer was possibly the GOAT

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We can all agree on who fought who and what their achievements were. It's a much straighter line towards an answer compared to all the criss cross weaving that has to be done to base your rankings on opinions.

This just isn't true.
"Achievements" are almost completely subjective when discussed around here, especially when based on "who they fought" or 'quality of opposition'.

It always boils down to opinions.
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Old 06-17-2012, 11:27 AM   #55
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey says Max Baer was possibly the GOAT

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This just isn't true.
"Achievements" are almost completely subjective when discussed around here, especially when based on "who they fought" or 'quality of opposition'.

It always boils down to opinions.
False. If a fighter wins a title it is fact. If a fighter goes up a weight class and wins a title it is fact. If a fighter beats someone who outweighs them considerably, it is again a fact.
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Old 06-17-2012, 02:32 PM   #56
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey says Max Baer was possibly the GOAT

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False. If a fighter wins a title it is fact. If a fighter goes up a weight class and wins a title it is fact. If a fighter beats someone who outweighs them considerably, it is again a fact.

True, those things are FACTS.

But most people here don't strictly consider those things when they talk about "achievements". Or they find ways to twist and manipulate the facts to grade their ATGs. And usually they base their own version on "quality of opposition", which is usually just based entirely on their own subjective opinion.

For example, many people will say they rank wholly on achievement, but they'll have a guy who made 1 championship defence above guys who made more defences.
Some people say they rank wholly on achievement but then insist that Joe Louis (longest title reign, most championship defences ever) belongs outside the top 10 or even top 20 fighters ever !
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