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Old 07-06-2007, 09:20 PM   #16
McGrain
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Default Re: ALI in Place of LOUIS from1937 to1949

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD FOGEY
I think Ali in that era would have been a heavyweight Charley Burley.
Interesting.

Though I think it's fair to say, just as was the case with Burley, representation would be the crucial point.
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Old 07-06-2007, 09:54 PM   #17
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Default Re: ALI in Place of LOUIS from1937 to1949

Even if Ali did not serve the WW2, Ali would go to prison. EITHER way, Ali STILL loses his prime years as Louis and Ali did in real life.
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Old 07-07-2007, 12:10 AM   #18
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Default Re: ALI in Place of LOUIS from1937 to1949

Assuming Ali gets the same opposition Louis does in the same order, he would get worn down faster by the hectic schedule and sheer volume of good contenders that Louis faced one after another. The smaller gloves would inflict a bit more damage as well in the long term. Somebody is bound to get to him eventually.
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Old 07-07-2007, 01:57 AM   #19
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Default Re: ALI in Place of LOUIS from1937 to1949

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Originally Posted by cross_trainer
Assuming Ali gets the same opposition Louis does in the same order, he would get worn down faster by the hectic schedule and sheer volume of good contenders that Louis faced one after another. The smaller gloves would inflict a bit more damage as well in the long term. Somebody is bound to get to him eventually.
Definatley. And although Ali has to be ranked higer due to accomplishments, in a head to head fight Walcott would beat him.
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Old 07-07-2007, 03:24 AM   #20
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Default Re: ALI in Place of LOUIS from1937 to1949

Quote:
Originally Posted by cross_trainer
Assuming Ali gets the same opposition Louis does in the same order, he would get worn down faster by the hectic schedule and sheer volume of good contenders that Louis faced one after another. The smaller gloves would inflict a bit more damage as well in the long term. Somebody is bound to get to him eventually.
Ali fought 5 times in '66 and handled it well. I'm sure he could handle the schedule.
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Old 07-07-2007, 05:59 AM   #21
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Default Re: ALI in Place of LOUIS from1937 to1949

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Originally Posted by cross_trainer
Assuming Ali gets the same opposition Louis does in the same order, he would get worn down faster by the hectic schedule and sheer volume of good contenders that Louis faced one after another.

Why do you say that? I wouldn't have said that Ali was less athletic, had less stamina, or less will.

Is it because you feel that he may have to fight more rounds? Because I feel that though this may be true, he would probably get hit less.
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Old 07-07-2007, 07:12 AM   #22
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Default Re: ALI in Place of LOUIS from1937 to1949

The Baer's,Conn,Godoy,Schmeling,Farr, would all be able to give Ali trouble, none of them were slow ponderous heavyweights that Ali enjoyed fighting, IMO Norton would not be able to last with Max Baer or Schmeling and Frazier would be in danger, Ali would be troubled with Conns speed but Also the 2 Max's had power and speed (not easy fights for Ali, lets face it Cooper had Ali hurt, Frazier had him down and the reason is because the could execute a punch with speed, Ali would get hit by these guys
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Old 07-07-2007, 07:40 AM   #23
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Default Re: ALI in Place of LOUIS from1937 to1949

The crucial factor that people are not taking into acount is the speed with which Louis was moved along.

6 months into his profesional career Louis is knocking over ranked contenders while Ali is fighting mostly tomato cans at this stage.

14 months into his profesional career Louis was fighting Max Baer. Ali was getting droped by Sony Banks 16 months into his career.

Less than two years into his profesional career he is fighting Max Schmeling. Ali has been fighting profesionaly for two and a half years when he has a close call against Doug Jones.

Is Ali going to be ready for the same oponents in the same time frame?
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Old 07-07-2007, 07:44 AM   #24
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Default Re: ALI in Place of LOUIS from1937 to1949

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
14 months into his profesional career Louis was fighting Max Baer. Ali was getting droped by Sony Banks 16 months into his career.

Less than two years into his profesional career he is fighting Max Schmeling.

Is Ali going to be ready for the same oponents in the same time frame?

I have touched upon some of this already and I agree that it's the crucial point - I actually think young Ali (or Clay as he probably would have been throughout his career if he was fighting at that time!) would be OK with Schmeling because of the type of fighter he was.

Baer. Baer would be the one.
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Old 07-07-2007, 07:55 AM   #25
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Default Re: ALI in Place of LOUIS from1937 to1949

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
I have touched upon some of this already and I agree that it's the crucial point - I actually think young Ali (or Clay as he probably would have been throughout his career if he was fighting at that time!) would be OK with Schmeling because of the type of fighter he was.

Baer. Baer would be the one.
He might run into trouble long before he faced the Baers and Schmelings of the division.

Is he going to be ready for Stanley Poreda or Patsy Peroni after four months?
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Old 07-07-2007, 07:56 AM   #26
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Default Re: ALI in Place of LOUIS from1937 to1949

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Originally Posted by janitor
Is he going to be ready for Stanley Poreda or Patsy Peroni after four months?

I haven't seen either of these guys fight so I can't comment specifically. But I do think that what he has naturally can't be underestimated.
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Old 07-07-2007, 11:15 AM   #27
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Default Re: ALI in Place of LOUIS from1937 to1949

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
Why do you say that? I wouldn't have said that Ali was less athletic, had less stamina, or less will.

Is it because you feel that he may have to fight more rounds? Because I feel that though this may be true, he would probably get hit less.
I say this because nobody, not even Ali, faced the sheer volume and frequency of contenders that Louis did over a sustained period and did so with consistency. In his own time, Ali dropped at least one and possibly two or three decisions to Ken Norton, who was not an amazing fighter outside of beating Ali. He also lost to Frazier, and arguably dropped at least one more during his second title reign.

I know that Louis could handle that kind of sustained, consistent workload because he already did it. Ali could be inconsistent. There's no question that he would be dominant in his prime, but it's unlikely that the 1970's are the only era that contain fighters who can defeat him.

Here's a timeline charting his actual decline in "our world" compared to his schedule in Louis's.

1934 = 1960
1934--12 opponents
1960--2 opponents of much lower quality

1935 = 1961
1935--15 opponents, including Baer, Carnera, Uzcudun,
1961--8 opponents of much lower quality

1936 = 1962
1936--6 opponents including Schmeling, Sharkey
1962--6 opponents including Banks, Lavorante and Moore

1937 = 1963

1937--5 fights, including a title shot
1963--3 fights, mostly against top contenders (as above)

1938 = 1964

1938--3 title defenses, including Schmeling
1964--title fight against Sonny Liston

1939 = 1965

1939--4 title fights
1965--Liston and Patterson (bad back)

1940 = 1966

1940--4 title defenses
1966--5 title defenses

1941 = 1967

1941--7 title defenses
1967--2 title defenses

1942 = 1968

1942--2 title defenses, off to war
1968--no title defenses, exiled

1943 = 1969

1943--off to war
1969--in exile

1944 = 1970

1944--1 title defense (very bad)
1970--2 fights

1945 = 1971

1945--off to war
1971--3 fights and FOTC

1946 = 1972

1946--2 title fights
1972--6 fights

1947 = 1973

1947--Walcott
1973--4 fights, including Norton twice

1948 = 1974

1948--Walcott
1974--Foreman, Frazier again (not nearly as good one)

1949 = 1975

1949--retired
1975--4 defenses

1950 = 1976

1950--Charles, 1 other
1976--4, including Norton and Young

1951 = 1977

1951--8 fights, including Marciano
1977--2 fights

1952 = 1978

1952--retired
1978--Spinks twice

1953 = 1979

Both careers are pretty much done.



Ali would face a lot more trouble early, particularly in the first few fights of his career. Given that Ali had a few problems as late as Cooper, and with the high early level of opposition he would have to face, I can see him dropping at least one at this stage of his career.

Louis had a harder and more filled title reign up until their respective exiles. It's conceivable that Ali would drop one here, but let's give him the benefit of the doubt. They may have roughly equivalent attrition by 1946...Ali would have probably been comparable to his 1972 or 1973 version that dropped a decision to Norton, and I can see him losing one to Walcott out of their two fights. He would have been more preserved in 1950 when he came back to face Charles, but would still have been roughly at 1974 or 1975 standards...where he could lose to Charles. And Louis's consistency against top contenders in 1951 was superior to what Ali mustered in the late 1970's, so I don't see Ali getting close enough to the title from that point on.

The two have pretty parallel careers, actually.
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Old 07-07-2007, 11:20 AM   #28
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Default Re: ALI in Place of LOUIS from1937 to1949

Ali would have a problem with Walcotts hook
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Old 07-07-2007, 11:32 AM   #29
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Default Re: ALI in Place of LOUIS from1937 to1949

Quote:
Originally Posted by cross_trainer
I say this because nobody, not even Ali, faced the sheer volume and frequency of contenders that Louis did over a sustained period and did so with consistency. In his own time, Ali dropped at least one and possibly two or three decisions to Ken Norton, who was not an amazing fighter outside of beating Ali. He also lost to Frazier, and arguably dropped at least one more during his second title reign.

I know that Louis could handle that kind of sustained, consistent workload because he already did it. Ali could be inconsistent. There's no question that he would be dominant in his prime, but it's unlikely that the 1970's are the only era that contain fighters who can defeat him.

Here's a timeline charting his actual decline in "our world" compared to his schedule in Louis's.

1934 = 1960
1934--12 opponents
1960--2 opponents of much lower quality

1935 = 1961
1935--15 opponents, including Baer, Carnera, Uzcudun,
1961--8 opponents of much lower quality

1936 = 1962
1936--6 opponents including Schmeling, Sharkey
1962--6 opponents including Banks, Lavorante and Moore

1937 = 1963

1937--5 fights, including a title shot
1963--3 fights, mostly against top contenders (as above)

1938 = 1964

1938--3 title defenses, including Schmeling
1964--title fight against Sonny Liston

1939 = 1965

1939--4 title fights
1965--Liston and Patterson (bad back)

1940 = 1966

1940--4 title defenses
1966--5 title defenses

1941 = 1967

1941--7 title defenses
1967--2 title defenses

1942 = 1968

1942--2 title defenses, off to war
1968--no title defenses, exiled

1943 = 1969

1943--off to war
1969--in exile

1944 = 1970

1944--1 title defense (very bad)
1970--2 fights

1945 = 1971

1945--off to war
1971--3 fights and FOTC

1946 = 1972

1946--2 title fights
1972--6 fights

1947 = 1973

1947--Walcott
1973--4 fights, including Norton twice

1948 = 1974

1948--Walcott
1974--Foreman, Frazier again (not nearly as good one)

1949 = 1975

1949--retired
1975--4 defenses

1950 = 1976

1950--Charles, 1 other
1976--4, including Norton and Young

1951 = 1977

1951--8 fights, including Marciano
1977--2 fights

1952 = 1978

1952--retired
1978--Spinks twice

1953 = 1979

Both careers are pretty much done.



Ali would face a lot more trouble early, particularly in the first few fights of his career. Given that Ali had a few problems as late as Cooper, and with the high early level of opposition he would have to face, I can see him dropping at least one at this stage of his career.

Louis had a harder and more filled title reign up until their respective exiles. It's conceivable that Ali would drop one here, but let's give him the benefit of the doubt. They may have roughly equivalent attrition by 1946...Ali would have probably been comparable to his 1972 or 1973 version that dropped a decision to Norton, and I can see him losing one to Walcott out of their two fights. He would have been more preserved in 1950 when he came back to face Charles, but would still have been roughly at 1974 or 1975 standards...where he could lose to Charles. And Louis's consistency against top contenders in 1951 was superior to what Ali mustered in the late 1970's, so I don't see Ali getting close enough to the title from that point on.

The two have pretty parallel careers, actually.

Excellent post--except for accepting boxrec's insane idea that the
exhibition against Johnny Davis in 1944 was a title defense. No one,
and I mean no one, thought so at the time. It was never listed by
Nat Fleischer in any Ring Record Book nor referred to at all, let
alone as a title defense, in the over sixty years since the bout. How
many sources have listed 25 title defenses by Louis as the record?
Nor was it thought of as a title defense at the time:

New York Times November 11, 1944

"Sergeant Joe Louis, World Heavyweight Champion on furlough from the
army after overseas service, yesterday recieved permission from the
State Athletic Commission to engage in an exhibition bout as part of
his current tour. The exhibition will be against Johnny Davis,
Brooklynite, in Buffalo on Tuesday night."

Louis fought an exhibition the night before fighting Davis in another
city, and fought an exhibition the night after. There was nothing
different about the Davis fight, which would never have been
sanctioned as a title defense.

That boxrec would stumble into such a grotesque mistake brings into
question their reliability on any bout at all. The most famous fighter
in the world does not have a title defense which goes so far under
the radar that Ring Magazine did not notice it. The same holds true
for the "defense" by Dempsey that they dug up.
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Old 07-07-2007, 12:07 PM   #30
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Default Re: ALI in Place of LOUIS from1937 to1949

Ali beat Liston x2 Patterson x2 Fraizer x2 Norton x2 Foreman x1.

Ali would have no trouble with Louis opposition. None of them are as good as the fighters Ali beat. Henry Cooper would do very well in Louis era.
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