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Old 07-07-2007, 03:32 PM   #31
Bummy Davis
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Default Re: ALI in Place of LOUIS from1937 to1949

Quote:
Originally Posted by groove
Ali beat Liston x2 Patterson x2 Fraizer x2 Norton x2 Foreman x1.

Ali would have no trouble with Louis opposition. None of them are as good as the fighters Ali beat. Henry Cooper would do very well in Louis era.

He would do well getting KO'd, Patterson knocked Cooper out cold in 4 rounds and he dominated Henry, Cooper would have been Ko'd by Baer,Schmeling,Walcott,Charles,Conn,Godoy,Buddy Baer,Galento,Farr,Carnera,Sharkey, and beaten by Braddock tko cuts
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Old 07-07-2007, 06:04 PM   #32
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Default Re: ALI in Place of LOUIS from1937 to1949

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Originally Posted by cross_trainer
I say this because nobody, not even Ali, faced the sheer volume and frequency of contenders that Louis did over a sustained period and did so with consistency
Quite right. But this thread is about what Ali could do in place of Louis, rather than what he did do in his own era. Ali's (relative) inactivity doesn't mean to say that this consumate athlete would have been broken down under the Louis regime, though I will say it's reasonable to suggest.



Quote:
I know that Louis could handle that kind of sustained, consistent workload because he already did it. Ali could be inconsistent. There's no question that he would be dominant in his prime, but it's unlikely that the 1970's are the only era that contain fighters who can defeat him.
I quite agree with you, but i'd suggest that the only fighter in Louis' era that would be likely to beat Ali would be Louis. I don't go in for all that Bum Of The Month BS, but i'm satisfied that the cream of Ali's era was better than the cream of Louis' era.

In the case of Frazier I am satisfied that he was up against The Guy, as far as Ali himself was concerned, though the Norton case is more interesting. As to whether or not Ali could survive under the Louis regime, I would agree that it's possible he would fail but I would specualte that he would be able to do it.

Quote:
Here's a timeline charting his actual decline in "our world" compared to his schedule in Louis's.

1934 = 1960
1934--12 opponents
1960--2 opponents of much lower quality

1935 = 1961
1935--15 opponents, including Baer, Carnera, Uzcudun,
1961--8 opponents of much lower quality

1936 = 1962
1936--6 opponents including Schmeling, Sharkey
1962--6 opponents including Banks, Lavorante and Moore

1937 = 1963

1937--5 fights, including a title shot
1963--3 fights, mostly against top contenders (as above)

1938 = 1964

1938--3 title defenses, including Schmeling
1964--title fight against Sonny Liston

1939 = 1965

1939--4 title fights
1965--Liston and Patterson (bad back)

1940 = 1966

1940--4 title defenses
1966--5 title defenses

1941 = 1967

1941--7 title defenses
1967--2 title defenses

1942 = 1968

1942--2 title defenses, off to war
1968--no title defenses, exiled

1943 = 1969

1943--off to war
1969--in exile

1944 = 1970

1944--1 title defense (very bad)
1970--2 fights

1945 = 1971

1945--off to war
1971--3 fights and FOTC

1946 = 1972

1946--2 title fights
1972--6 fights

1947 = 1973

1947--Walcott
1973--4 fights, including Norton twice

1948 = 1974

1948--Walcott
1974--Foreman, Frazier again (not nearly as good one)

1949 = 1975

1949--retired
1975--4 defenses

1950 = 1976

1950--Charles, 1 other
1976--4, including Norton and Young

1951 = 1977

1951--8 fights, including Marciano
1977--2 fights

1952 = 1978

1952--retired
1978--Spinks twice

1953 = 1979

Both careers are pretty much done.
Absolutley beautifully done. This is the kind of thing I am writing down this time incase we have another crash.



Quote:
Ali would face a lot more trouble early, particularly in the first few fights of his career. Given that Ali had a few problems as late as Cooper, and with the high early level of opposition he would have to face, I can see him dropping at least one at this stage of his career.
I think that Ali would fight differently if he was coming up against quality opponents that early. Ali clowned like Baer clowned, but he had more high gears to slip into. Contrast the round where Ali was hurt v Cooper, and the one immediatly after it.

We'd see less of the former and more of the later under the Louis regime, I feel.

Quote:
I can see him losing one to Walcott out of their two fights.
I hope you know I'm no Ali-lover, also I've always shown respect for Joe Walcott, a fighter I really like, but I don't think Walcott sees round 10 against Ali in either fight.


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He would have been more preserved in 1950 when he came back to face Charles, but would still have been roughly at 1974 or 1975 standards...where he could lose to Charles.
I agree with this. I think if Chales fought the right fight he would beat Ali. Though Ali has the chance If Charles puts a foot wrong.


Quote:
The two have pretty parallel careers, actually.
It is interesting.

Though I don't agree with a lot of what you've said, I really enjoyed your post, thank you.
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Old 03-14-2008, 06:34 PM   #33
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Default Re: ALI in Place of LOUIS from1937 to1949

Ali in his prime would have a party with Louis's opposition. One fight with Frazier equals five fights withe the likes of Dorazio, Simon, Paycheck, Perroni et al. Joe may have fought more frequently but against lesser opposition. Put Louis in against Ali's opposition and see if he fights as frequently., I doubt it. A 215lb Ali is too fast and strong for the likes of Charles, Walcott, Conn, Schmeling etc. With his height, weight, reach, handspeed and especially footwork, who the hell would catch him? With the exception of Conn who weighed 169lbs(169lbs? Are you kidding me?) for his fight with Joe, all of Joe's opponents basically stood right in front of him and he in front of them. Ali would be culture shock for these guys! The only fighter from that period who would give Ali trouble imo would be Walcott. Tricky and shifty with a good punch. Other than Jersey Joe, Ali, a prime Ali, would have a picnic.
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Old 03-14-2008, 07:07 PM   #34
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Default Re: ALI in Place of LOUIS from1937 to1949

Cross trainer, a great post and thought provoking and informative, other posts not quite so!
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Old 03-14-2008, 08:52 PM   #35
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Default Re: ALI in Place of LOUIS from1937 to1949

A 34 year old Ali would have a lot of problems with Walcott when Ali was this age he was getting close wins against Norton and Young and Walcott is a more difficult style then both men. Also Ali outspoken attitude may have done negative things for black fighters like it did for Johnson so guys like Charles, Patterson and Liston may not have got their opportunities.
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Old 03-14-2008, 09:34 PM   #36
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Default Re: ALI in Place of LOUIS from1937 to1949

one good way to match the careers is made possible by the fact that they both turned pro very young. If Ali would have been in Louis' shoes on the same time line and the guys I would give some chance to win (however small).

Adolph Waiter. A real question mark. Not much is known about Waiter. But he seems to be a real tough opponent for somebody with a handful of fights. This is a question mark, how would an Ali do if this was his sixth or so fight? Question mark.

Max Schmeling. Ali would be very young here, and while Max might not be able to see a real exploitable weakness here, he is still a great fighter who would be in with a very inexperienced Ali. But I think that Ali's style would allow him to do better than Louis did. Though the second fight would not be like Louis v. Schmelling II. Schmeling fights him close on two close, but losing efforts.

Bob Pastor. This would have been a tough fight for Ali. Pastor was a very smart, defensive fighter and the kind of guy that Ali would have to look for. Ali would probably beat him, but he would look really bad and Pastor for sure would have his moments.

Tony Galento, a slim chance, but a chance because of the left hook (ali leveler).

Bob Pastor again. If Ali fights him again based on a close fight before, Ali does just as bad if not worse this time. Louis was the ultimate in rematch kings, Ali, not as much, whereas Pastor may bring more into the rematch.

Arturo Godoy. A tough swarming fighter who would give Ali a tough night and move him towards the ropes a la Chuvalo. Ali is really helped here because he meets Godoy in his prime.

Billy Conn. I think that Ali has a tough time with Conn. Yes Conn was smaller, and had very little power, but Ali does have a problem with a fighter that he will have to go after as opposed to one who will come in to take his head off. Conn could pull off the upset against Ali that he couldn't have done vs. Louis. But Conn's speed would be nearly be somewhat nulled because of the speed of Ali. Ali still needs to press here, so it could be interesting.

Lou Nova. Nova was a pretty good fighter who froze more than a little against Louis. Those that think that Max Baer may have done the trick because he wouldn't freeze up, I would be more inclined to go with Nova who had less power, but still good power, and was more of a technical fighter. I would still pick Ali to win because I think he could cut up Nova.

Tami Mauriello. How would a mid thirties Ali who has lost his legs somewhat do against the swarming Mauriello? Without the absolute bombs that Louis had, Ali would be in for a longer night here. No first round KO and Mauriello would really make a fight of it.

Jersey Joe Walcott. Walcott would have been a tough fight for Ali style wise at any time. The fact that Ali would be older here makes for a real tough fight. I favor Walcott here after he is perhaps robbed in the first fight, in a rematch.

Marciano and Charles would beat a Leon Spinks era Ali, but I throw those out the window.


Louis lost to Schmeling, Charles and Rocky. 69-3
Ali could lose to Pastor II, Mauriello, Walcott (at least once), Charles and Rocky. 67-5.
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Old 03-14-2008, 10:08 PM   #37
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Default Re: ALI in Place of LOUIS from1937 to1949

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Walcott would be far, far easier for Ali, he would stop Walcott middle rounds twice I think.
I think Walcott would have been ali's nightmare. A slick cutie counterpuncher with footwork and upperbody moves that could match ali's, and a devastating left hook which ali was sucseptible too. I still see ali winning but very close fight. Louis said Walcott would have beaten ali.
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Old 03-14-2008, 10:11 PM   #38
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Default Re: ALI in Place of LOUIS from1937 to1949

I would have liked to see how Ali would have done against Harry Bobo, Lee Q murray, Turkey Thompson, Elmer Ray, Jimmy Bivins, Jack Trammell, Willie Reddish, Roscoe Toles, Tiger Jack Fox. Too bad politics and world war II prevented louis from fighting some of these very well deserving guys.
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Old 03-14-2008, 10:14 PM   #39
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Default Re: ALI in Place of LOUIS from1937 to1949

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
I would have liked to see how Ali would have done against Harry Bobo, Lee Q murray, Turkey Thompson, Elmer Ray, Jimmy Bivins, Jack Trammell, Willie Reddish, Roscoe Toles, Tiger Jack Fox. Too bad politics and world war II prevented louis from fighting some of these very well deserving guys.

Bivins against Ali would be great for the fans, Jimmy had a slick style who would be dangerous for Ali...
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Old 03-15-2008, 01:11 PM   #40
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Default Re: ALI in Place of LOUIS from1937 to1949

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Originally Posted by mcvey
Replace Louis with Ali for The Bombers title reign.
What changes do you see?
Ali defends against the same opponents,whatresults would change?
Would Ali be unbeaten?
Which wins do you think would be more emphatic?
Which fights would be harder?
Which easier?
Ali clears it relativelly easy for that matter so would Tyson and Holmes.

Only Conn and Wallcot might give some trouble.

Louis did not really fight a great slew of of contenders.

But the myth of Joe Louis makes those contenders look better then they really where.
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Old 03-15-2008, 01:33 PM   #41
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Default Re: ALI in Place of LOUIS from1937 to1949

Cooper gets a bad beating by Ali in 2 fights but he lands one good punch and is now considered a troublesome fighter for Ali Same with Banks LOL. When Ali did get knocked down he got straight back up. Shit happens but it's how you react that's important. Clutching at straws me thinks
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Old 03-15-2008, 03:18 PM   #42
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Default Re: ALI in Place of LOUIS from1937 to1949

Quote:
Originally Posted by groove
Ali would have no trouble with Louis opposition. None of them are as good as the fighters Ali beat.
He might just have more trouble with Louis's oponents than his own.

While they were generaly inferior they might have posed more awkward stylistic match ups.

The guys I rather fancy as possible spoilers are Bob Pastor, Tommy Farr, Billy Conn and Joe Walcott.
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Old 03-15-2008, 03:29 PM   #43
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Default Re: ALI in Place of LOUIS from1937 to1949

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by godking
Ali clears it relativelly easy for that matter so would Tyson and Holmes.
That is utter rubish.

You are not even taking into acount the circumstances Louis fought these contenders under.

I wouldnt be a prime Ali fighting Max Baer it would be the pre Sonny Banks version.

It wouldnt be a prime Ali that fought Walcott it would be the post Manilla version and he would not have Louis's power to bail him out.

The notion that Tyson could reign for 12 years in any era is preposterous. He just didnt have the stability or consistency.
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Old 03-15-2008, 04:13 PM   #44
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Default Re: ALI in Place of LOUIS from1937 to1949

[quote=janitor]
Quote:


That is utter rubish.

You are not even taking into acount the circumstances Louis fought these contenders under.

I wouldnt be a prime Ali fighting Max Baer it would be the pre Sonny Banks version.

It wouldnt be a prime Ali that fought Walcott it would be the post Manilla version and he would not have Louis's power to bail him out.

The notion that Tyson could reign for 12 years in any era is preposterous. He just didnt have the stability or consistency.
Ali clears it

I give none of the contenders that Louis fought more then a 1 in 5 chance

Your are right about Tyson i should have rephrased that . A tyson that does not get derailed by lack of motivation or out of the ring distractions rules for until he is 29 -30 in the Louis era at around 29 30 he gets diminishing returns from his infighting and gets ripe for the upset

Holmes clears it but could get trouble at the end from Jersey Joe. Walcott could pull of a Spinks upset on an older Holmes.
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Old 03-15-2008, 04:23 PM   #45
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Default Re: ALI in Place of LOUIS from1937 to1949

[quote]
[quote=godking]
Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
Ali clears it

I give none of the contenders that Louis fought more then a 1 in 5 chance
I would not give many of them better than a 1 in 5 chance but if Ali fights all of them there is the chance that one gets past him.

I do think that his title reign would be similar to Louis's but different. He would be the dominant heavyweight over the same period.

One guy I do think would get past him is Jersey Joe Walcott. I think he would beat a faded Ali. Louis only got past him at that stage due to his finishing abilities.

On the flip side of the coin Ali probably beats Scheling.

Quote:
Your are right about Tyson i should have rephrased that . A tyson that does not get derailed by lack of motivation or out of the ring distractions rules for until he is 29 -30 in the Louis era at around 29 30 he gets diminishing returns from his infighting and gets ripe for the upset
Fair enough.

Quote:
Holmes clears it but could get trouble at the end from Jersey Joe. Walcott could pull of a Spinks upset on an older Holmes.
I dont think Holmes would clear it. He would have been thrown in against top contenders earlier and would have had slightly tougher matches throughout.

I do think however that Holmes has the most important element to replicat Louis's title reign eg consistency.
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