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Old 09-26-2011, 03:14 PM   #1
lufcrazy
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Default My timeline of the premiere HW in the world.

John L Sullivan: (july)1882-(april)1889 [loses claim when jackson beats patsy cardiff]

Peter Jackson: (april)1889-(september)1892 [loses claim when corbett beats sullivan]

James Corbett: (september)1892-(feb)1896 [loses claim when fitzsimmons beats maher]

Bob Fitzsimmons: (feb)1896-(june)1899 [loses to jeffries]
James Jeffries: (june)1899-(march)1905 [retires his claim whilst jack beats hart]

Jack Johnson: (march)1905-(september)1911 [loses claim when langford beats jeannette]

Sam Langford: (september)1911-(december)1911 [loses to mcvey]
Sam McVey: (december)1911-(april)1912 [loses rematch to sam]
Sam Langford: (april)1912-(april)1915 [loses claim when willard beats johnson]

Jess Willard: (april)1915-(december)1917 [loses claim when wills beats clark]

Harry Wills: (december)1917-(july)1919 [loses claim when dempsey beats willard]

Jack Dempsey: (july)1919-(september)1924 [loses claim when wills beat firpo]

Harry Wills: (september)1924-(september)1926 [loses claim when tunney beats dempsey]

Gene Tunney: (september)1926-(february)1929 [retires his claim whilst sharkey beats stribling]

Jack Sharkey: (february)1929-(june)1930 [loses to schmelling]
Max Schmelling: (june)1930-(june)1933 [loses to baer]
Max Baer: (june)1933-(june)1935 [loses to braddock]
James Braddock: (june)1935-(june)1936 [loses claim when schmelling beats louis]

Max Schmelling: (june)1936-(june)1937 [loses claim when louis beats schmelling]

Joe Louis: (june)1938-(september)1942 [loses claim when bivins beats mauriello]

Jimmy Bivins: (september)1942-(june)1946 [loses claim when louis beats conn]

Joe Louis: (june)1946-(june)1949 [retires his claim whilst charles beats walcott]

Ezzard Charles: (june)1949-(july)1951 [loses to walcott]
Joe Walcott: (july)1951-(september)1952 [loses to marciano]
Rocky Marciano: (september)1952-(december)1955 [retires whilst patterson beats slade]

Floyd Patterson: (december)1955-(june)1959 [loses to johanneson]
Ingo Johanneson: (june)1959-(june)1960 [loses to patterson]
Floyd Patterson: (june)1960-(september)1960 [loses claim when liston beats machen]

Sonny Liston: (september)1960-(feb)1964 [loses to ali]
Muhammad Ali: (feb)1964-(june)1968 [loses claim when frazier beat ramos]

Joe Frazier: (june)1968-(jan)1973 [loses to foreman]
George Foreman: (jan)1973-(october)1974 [loses to ali]
Muhammad Ali: (october)1974-(september)1976 [loses to norton]
Kenny Norton: (september)1976-(june)1978 [loses to holmes]
Larry Holmes: (june)1978-(september)1985 [loses to spinks]
Michael Spinks: (september)1985-(april)1986 [loses to holmes]
Larry Holmes: (april)1986-(november)1986 [retires his claim whilst tyson beats berbick]

Mike Tyson: (november)1986-(feb)1990 [loses to douglas]
James Douglas: (feb)1990-(october)1990 [loses to holyfield]
Evander Holyfield: (october)1990-(november)1992 [loses to bowe]
Riddick Bowe: (november)1992-(may)1993 [loses claim when lewis beats tucker]

Lennox Lewis: (may)1993-(november)1993 [loses claim when holyfield beats bowe]

Evander Holyfield: (november)1993-(november)1994 [retires his claim whilst foreman beats moorer]

George Foreman: (november)1994-(march)1995 [loses claim when bowe beats hide]

Riddick Bowe: (march)1995-(march)1996 [loses claim when tyson beats bruno]

Mike Tyson: (march)1996-(november)1996 [loses to holyfield]
Evander Holyfield: (november)1996-(march)1999 [loses to lewis]
Lennox Lewis: (march)1999-(april)2001 [loses to rahman]
Hasim Rahman: (april)2001-(november)2001 [loses to lewis]
Lennox Lewis: (november)2001-(march)2004 [retires his claim whilst vitali beats sanders]

Vitali Klitschko: (march)2004-(october)2005 [retires his clauim whilst byrd beat williamson]

Chris Byrd: (october)2005-(april)2006 [loses to wlad]
Wladimir Klitschko: (april)2006-Present [premiere hw]

Last edited by lufcrazy; 12-03-2011 at 01:43 PM.
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Old 09-26-2011, 03:20 PM   #2
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Default Re: My timeline of the premiere HW in the world.

I don't think that Marvin Hart, Tommy Burns, Primo Carnera, Jimmy Braddock, James Douglas, Michael Moorer or Hasim Ramhan were ever the best heavyweight in the world, even though their title credentials were rock solid.

Perhaps we need to refine the criteria here?
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Old 09-26-2011, 03:24 PM   #3
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Default Re: My timeline of the premiere HW in the world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lufcrazy View Post
After a fair bit of research (but still nowhere near enough) I've decided to make an attempt at giving a timeline for who I believe the best HW in the world was. At times this differs slightly to the traditional lineage but it largely follows it as well.

John L Sullivan: 1882-1888 (6 years)
Peter Jackson: 1888-1892 (4 years)
James Corbett: 1892-1896 (4 years) <- Maher deserves a shoutout
Bob Fitzsimmons: 1896-1899 (3 years)
James Jeffreis: 1899-1905 (6 years)
Marvin Hart: 1905-1906 (1 years) <- still not convinced he got a gift v Johnson
Tommy Burns: 1906-1908 (2 years)
Jack Johnson: 1908-1913 (6 years)
Sam Langford: 1913-1915 (3 years)
Jess Willard: 1915-1916 (2 years)
Harry Wills: 1916-1918 (2 years)
Jack Dempsey: 1918-1924 (6 years)
Harry Wills: 1924-1926 (3 years)
Gene Tunney: 1926-1928 (3 years)
Jack Sharkey: 1928-1930 (2 years)
Max Schmelling: 1930-1933 (3 years)
Primo Carnera: 1933-1934 (2 years)
Max Baer: 1934-1935 (2 years)
James Braddock: 1935-1937 (2 years)
Max Schmelling: 1937-1938 (2 years)
Joe Louis: 1938-1949 (12 years)
Ezzard Charles: 1949-1951 (2 years)
Joe Walcott: 1951-1952 (2 years)
Rocky Marciano: 1952-1955 (4 years)
Archie Moore: 1955-1956 (2 years)
Floyd Patterson: 1956-1959 (4 years)
Sonny Liston: 1959-1964 (5 years)
Muhammad Ali: 1964-1968 (5 years)
Joe Frazier: 1968-1973 (5 years)
George Foreman: 1973-1974 (2 years)
Muhammad Ali: 1974-1976 (2 years)
Kenny Norton: 1976-1978 (3 years)
Larry Holmes: 1978-1985 (7 years)
Michael Spinks: 1985-1986 (1 years)
Larry Holmes: 1986 (1 year)
Mike Tyson: 1986-1990 (4 years)
Buster Douglas: 1990 (1 year)
Evander Holyfield: 1990-1992 (2 years)
Riddick Bowe: 1992-1993 (2 years)
Evander Holyfield: 1993-1994 (1 years)
Michael Moorer: 1994 (1 year)
George Foreman: 1994-1995 (1 year)
Riddick Bowe: 1995-1996 (1 year)
Mike Tyson: 1996 (1 year)
Evander Holyfield: 1996-1999 (3 years)
Lennox Lewis: 1999-2001 (2 years)
Hasim Rahman: 2001 (1 year)
Lennox Lewis: 2001-2004 (3 years)
Vitali Klitschko: 2004-2005 (1 year)
Chris Byrd: 2005-2006 (1 year)
Wladimir Klitschko: 2006-Present (6 years running)

Thoughts?

have I given any particular man unwarranted credit? The way I view this here is a large part of how I rank the great HW's. It isn't the deciding factor but it makes up about 35% of the decision.
GREAT idea and I think it's well done and well thought out. I especially like byrd for 2005-2006, small but distict time period where he WAS the best heavy in the world.

the only ones i would disagree with offhand or at least question is norton and braddock. i guess it all depends on how you rated he and ali respectively after their 3rd fight. other than that, makes a lot of sense. also, braddock from 35-37. despite holding the belt, was he ever really the best?

btw: just waiting for the argument that vitali is STILL the best heavy in the world and has been since his return
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Old 09-26-2011, 03:31 PM   #4
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Default Re: My timeline of the premiere HW in the world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor View Post
I don't think that Marvin Hart, Tommy Burns, Primo Carnera, Jimmy Braddock, James Douglas, Michael Moorer or Hasim Ramhan were ever the best heavyweight in the world, even though their title credentials were rock solid.

Perhaps we need to refine the criteria here?
that's the thing isn't. how can one define something so astute?

for example, if you believe Johnson beat Hart, then you'd have him as the premiere HW much earlier. I personally can't find enough evidence to back up that claim however.

If you think Carnera's knockout of Sharkey is enough to usurp Schmelling(who was robbed against Sharkey by all accounts) then his place is justified, unless you believe Schmelling remains there until his loss to Baer (I was caught in two minds here)

Braddock, again was beating Baer more impressive than Schmelling knocking out Louis? by all accounts Baer was seen in a similar light to Liston during his time as champ but I could be swayed otherwise.

Douglas and Rahman both have the same claim of knocking out the universally regarded HW champion and that for me is certainly enough (there was no dispute that Tyson nor Lewis were the best going into the fight)

Moorer, if you think he got a gift v Holyfield that changes things. I haven't watched the fight for a long time and can't find my score card.


For me it comes down to quality of resume at the time, media appreciation (or that of boxing insiders) dubious results, devastating victories. I think if you beat the best, you become the best. I don't think you automatically retain that right however, you have to earn it constantly.

Out of interest who would you put above the suggestions?

I assume Johnson over Hart and Burns; Schmelling over Carnera and Braddock; Holyfield over Douglas and agin over Moorer; Lewis over Rahman? (dismising the result as a fluke?)
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Old 09-26-2011, 03:32 PM   #5
edward morbius
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Default Re: My timeline of the premiere HW in the world.

It does seem odd that Johansson doesn't even get one year for ko'ing Machen and Patterson back to back.

Liston's wins in 1959--DeJohn, Williams, Valdes, Besmanoff?

Were any of those guys even rated when Liston fought them? Williams perhaps could be viewed as a tougher opponent than his rating, but still I don't see how this puts Liston ahead of a man who ko'd the #1 contender and the champion back to back.

Are you going by achievement or h2h? If h2h, when would you favor Braddock over Louis?
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Old 09-26-2011, 03:32 PM   #6
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Default Re: My timeline of the premiere HW in the world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor View Post
I don't think that Marvin Hart, Tommy Burns, Primo Carnera, Jimmy Braddock, James Douglas, Michael Moorer or Hasim Ramhan were ever the best heavyweight in the world, even though their title credentials were rock solid.

Perhaps we need to refine the criteria here?
I think they took advantage of the circumstances and grabbed the brass ring.

I think this is a fantastic list.
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Old 09-26-2011, 03:35 PM   #7
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Default Re: My timeline of the premiere HW in the world.

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Originally Posted by Jorodz View Post
GREAT idea and I think it's well done and well thought out. I especially like byrd for 2005-2006, small but distict time period where he WAS the best heavy in the world.

the only ones i would disagree with offhand or at least question is norton and braddock. i guess it all depends on how you rated he and ali respectively after their 3rd fight. other than that, makes a lot of sense. also, braddock from 35-37. despite holding the belt, was he ever really the best?

btw: just waiting for the argument that vitali is STILL the best heavy in the world and has been since his return
thankyou, it's been something i planned for ages and only just have enough confidence in my knowledge to attempt.

Yeah Byrd imo beat Fres, Mccline and drew with golota whilst ruiz lost to golota and toney. Brewster arguably lost to Meehan and I think Byrd kinda inherited the spot when Lewis and Vitali both retired.

Braddock is a very interesting point because it could be argued that Schmelling was the best HW in the world for a considerable period.

Vitali, yes I remember boilermaker once making an interesting point that he thought the viewpoint of the brothers will be backdated and I think I'm starting to conform: if Wlad lose to Mormeck and Vitali beats Haye, people will say it's now obviosu that Vitali was the best from 08-present and I'm not too sure I would disagree. Living in the now however, wlad is significantly more credentialled in the present HW scene IMO.
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Old 09-26-2011, 03:37 PM   #8
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Default Re: My timeline of the premiere HW in the world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by edward morbius View Post
It does seem odd that Johansson doesn't even get one year for ko'ing Machen and Patterson back to back.

Liston's wins in 1959--DeJohn, Williams, Valdes, Besmanoff?

Were any of those guys even rated when Liston fought them? Williams perhaps could be viewed as a tougher opponent than his rating, but still I don't see how this puts Liston ahead of a man who ko'd the #1 contender and the champion back to back.

Are you going by achievement or h2h? If h2h, when would you favor Braddock over Louis?
AHA, well spotted I meant from 1960. yes that changes things back to Ingo in 59, I'll amend. That is a mistake on my part!
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Old 09-26-2011, 03:40 PM   #9
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Default Re: My timeline of the premiere HW in the world.

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that's the thing isn't. how can one define something so astute?

for example, if you believe Johnson beat Hart, then you'd have him as the premiere HW much earlier. I personally can't find enough evidence to back up that claim however.
Even if I was certain that Hart deserved the decision over Johnson (to use that example), I would still consider Johnson to be the best heavyweight in the world at that time.

I would simply conclude that Hart had his number stylisticaly.
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Old 09-26-2011, 03:41 PM   #10
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Default Re: My timeline of the premiere HW in the world.

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Originally Posted by edward morbius View Post
It does seem odd that Johansson doesn't even get one year for ko'ing Machen and Patterson back to back.

Liston's wins in 1959--DeJohn, Williams, Valdes, Besmanoff?

Were any of those guys even rated when Liston fought them? Williams perhaps could be viewed as a tougher opponent than his rating, but still I don't see how this puts Liston ahead of a man who ko'd the #1 contender and the champion back to back.

Are you going by achievement or h2h? If h2h, when would you favor Braddock over Louis?
corrected. my criteria is that of circumstances coming together to lead to a valid usurpation of the champion (being that the champ isn't the best)

ingo knocking out machen and floyd was brilliant, I meant to include that. Floyd knocking out ingo in the rubber essentially meant that whilst floyd and ingo were knocking each other out, sonny was in the background destroying ranked contenders looking invincible. This I believe led to him being seen as the best by most who followed boxing, led to him being the main line betting favourite over floyd and proving it dramatically when he knocked Floyd out in 2 minutes 6 seconds.
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Old 09-26-2011, 03:44 PM   #11
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Default Re: My timeline of the premiere HW in the world.

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Joe Louis: 1938-1949 (12 years)
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Old 09-26-2011, 03:44 PM   #12
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Default Re: My timeline of the premiere HW in the world.

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Even if I was certain that Hart deserved the decision over Johnson (to use that example), I would still consider Johnson to be the best heavyweight in the world at that time.

I would simply conclude that Hart had his number stylisticaly.
what are your thoughts on the fight? having his number; this is something that raises an interesting point. If you have the number of the HW king and noone else is beating you, surely you're the Hw king yourself?

Hart's run from choynski to burns is somewhat underrated IMO and his victories over Johnson and root underline his credentials IMO.
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Old 09-26-2011, 03:45 PM   #13
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I find it hard calling him the premiere HW when he got an undeserved title shot. Once he'd flattend max in the rematch he'd legitimised his claim IMO.
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Old 09-26-2011, 03:48 PM   #14
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Well think about it this way, he whipped everyone in the game but max. Including the other max, who whipped the german max. In a way I think it's definitely possible for Louis to still have been the best heavy out there while having lost to Schmeling- if you were willing to acknowledge that as an aberration of a performance and not a defining stance on who was top dawg at the time.
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Old 09-26-2011, 03:48 PM   #15
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I think they took advantage of the circumstances and grabbed the brass ring.

I think this is a fantastic list.
thank you.
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