Just watched PRIDE 33 for the first time......

[dillinja]

Originally Posted by Haggis McJackass

And I don't understand how the quality of the fighters was apparently so much higher. Seems to me that the very best PRIDE guys would be top level in the modern UFC, and the likes of Jones and JDS would have been kicking everyone's ass in PRIDE as well.

That point is not relevant at all, what people comment on is the fact that pride had the better fighters at the time and it had a good depth of fighters, obviously now there is only ufc as a main organisation its going to catch up or move ahead even from the best days of pride.

[dillinja]

Originally Posted by Haggis McJackass

Yeah, it was a good fight. I'm not hating.

But I don't see Cro-Cop just walking through the likes of JDS or Cain. The way the PRIDE heavyweight holy trinity is talked about, it's like nobody in an octagon can ever compete with them. Put today's JDS in against Fedor on that Final Conflict card, and that's a fight for the ages as well. Same thing if you throw in Bones against Final Conflict Wandy.

The sport has evolved as it always does, at the time cro-cop was running through guys in pride ufc had tim sylvia etc not dos santos and cain, you have to compare like for like to have an even result.

[Haggis McJackass]

Originally Posted by dillinja

The sport has evolved as it always does, at the time cro-cop was running through guys in pride ufc had tim sylvia etc not dos santos and cain, you have to compare like for like to have an even result.

Oh yeah, like I said I'm not trying to talk shit on Cro Cop or Big Nog. Definately PRIDE at the time was where the best fighters were, especially at HW.

But now the sport has evolved, and there's no reason why the greats of today couldn't beat the likes of Cro Cop and Nog. You can't dare to suggest that Bones could possibly be the greatest LHW of all, because apparently PRIDE Shogun, prime Wanderlei, that's all that needs to be said.

[dillinja]

Originally Posted by Haggis McJackass

Oh yeah, like I said I'm not trying to talk shit on Cro Cop or Big Nog. Definately PRIDE at the time was where the best fighters were, especially at HW.

But now the sport has evolved, and there's no reason why the greats of today couldn't beat the likes of Cro Cop and Nog. You can't dare to suggest that Bones could possibly be the greatest LHW of all, because apparently PRIDE Shogun, prime Wanderlei, that's all that needs to be said.

I understand what you are saying but you have to compare like for like, wanderli and shogun went on runs of fights that at the time were better than things jones has done, im pretty confident jones would still beat them prime for prime but he still needs another few good fights to be getting on towards number 1lhw of all time.
Wanderli and fedor are from the last generation of mma fighters and the sport is evolving fast, they have been passed by but at the time there was nobody to beat them, were as someone like jds still has a number of fighters he has to beat before he can move onto there levels.

[Haggis McJackass]

Originally Posted by dillinja

I understand what you are saying but you have to compare like for like, wanderli and shogun went on runs of fights that at the time were better than things jones has done, im pretty confident jones would still beat them prime for prime but he still needs another few good fights to be getting on towards number 1lhw of all time.
Wanderli and fedor are from the last generation of mma fighters and the sport is evolving fast, they have been passed by but at the time there was nobody to beat them, were as someone like jds still has a number of fighters he has to beat before he can move onto there levels.

I agree completely.

Jones in particular doesn't have the run of victories and extended period of dominance that Wanderlei had.

But in that case, Jones, he has now gone through a good lineup of championship-level fighters. And he has utterly obliterated every one of them, using physical gifts that none of them have ever seen before. Gifts that Wanderlei or Shogun would never have seen before.

It seems self-evident that 2012 Jones would be a PRIDE superstar. Yet it gets pretty tiresome when you can't suggest that today's greatest in the UFC could possibly be the equals or even betters of yesterday's stars in a significantly more niche, less evolved version sport.

[Stoo]

Originally Posted by dillinja

And I don't understand how the quality of the fighters was apparently so much higher. Seems to me that the very best PRIDE guys would be top level in the modern UFC, and the likes of Jones and JDS would have been kicking everyone's ass in PRIDE as well.

I think Jones would have done very well in PRIDE, but JDS fought in Japan for years, they just called him Sergei Kharitanov back then.

Id like to see Junior in with Overeem's K1 level striking and a competitive Cain who tries to wrestle before we can move Junior from the very good to great category. We've not seen JDS pushed thus far, and Im unsure if that's because he's great, or just better than the guys he's fought.

[dillinja]

Originally Posted by Stoo

I think Jones would have done very well in PRIDE, but JDS fought in Japan for years, they just called him Sergei Kharitanov back then.

Id like to see Junior in with Overeem's K1 level striking and a competitive Cain who tries to wrestle before we can move Junior from the very good to great category. We've not seen JDS pushed thus far, and Im unsure if that's because he's great, or just better than the guys he's fought.

Tbf jds has much better power than sergi.

[Stoo]

Originally Posted by dillinja

Tbf jds has much better power than sergi.

He's a little quicker and fights alot smarter too, I think he's better than Sergie. It was mainly a stylistic point. JDS has done very well with his boxing, but the striking talent he's face is a little uninspiring and he hasnt really faced a TD specialist who went in with that gameplan either. The aforementioned power/speed was able to put away both Werdum and Cain pretty quickly.

If he keeps doing that, or overcomes the points I made in my first post with regards to Reem and Cain, then in my books he goes from very good to great

[Stoo]

And just to add I think on paper Cormier will be his most interesting test stylistically. Dan doesnt have to keep eating the jab all night, if he wants him on his back he'll put him there. Then we will see how good Juniors ground game is

There's a possibility that Cain could do it first too, but again Im yet to be convinced that he's more than a decent heavy hitter in terms of stand up, and his defence is poor. I think Junior will hit that chin eventually

[Vic-JofreBRASIL]

Perhaps there is a bit of nostalgia on me when I talk about this year of 2005 in MMA.....but that PRIDE Final Confict was ****ing unbelievable !!!!

[AJAX]

Originally Posted by Stoo

I think Jones would have done very well in PRIDE, but JDS fought in Japan for years, they just called him Sergei Kharitanov back then.

Id like to see Junior in with Overeem's K1 level striking and a competitive Cain who tries to wrestle before we can move Junior from the very good to great category. We've not seen JDS pushed thus far, and Im unsure if that's because he's great, or just better than the guys he's fought.

That's the same mentality people said about Jones, "because he hasn't been pushed" Do you think it might be the fact that he is that dam good and nobody has been able to come close to beat him yet?

The guys that havn't been able to push him yet are

Mir-tko 2
Cain tko-1
Carwin- bloody UD should have stopped
Nelson- beating from post to pillar
Gonzaga- tko-1
Yvel tko-1
Cro Cop tko-3
Struve-tko-1
Werdum-tko-1

You can't ignore this resume and he has done this in only a few years and I'm sure he will add to it.

[Stoo]

Originally Posted by AJAX

That's the same mentality people said about Jones, "because he hasn't been pushed" Do you think it might be the fact that he is that dam good and nobody has been able to come close to beat him yet?

The guys that havn't been able to push him yet are

Mir-tko 2
Cain tko-1
Carwin- bloody UD should have stopped
Nelson- beating from post to pillar
Gonzaga- tko-1
Yvel tko-1
Cro Cop tko-3
Struve-tko-1
Werdum-tko-1

You can't ignore this resume and he has done this in only a few years and I'm sure he will add to it.

Are you being serious? The bold ones are good wins, they rest are past it or have done **** all in MMA when speaking in ATG terms. A very solid resume dont get me wrong. As I said earlier he is very good

But his career defining fights are yet to come. Proving the Cain fight wasnt a fluke, fighting a striker who is more than ''Ok for MMA'' in Reem, and fighting a guy like Cormier who will take him down.

Again, he's very good, but these are the fights that will make him great

[AJAX]

Originally Posted by Stoo

Are you being serious? The bold ones are good wins, they rest are past it or have done **** all in MMA when speaking in ATG terms. A very solid resume dont get me wrong. As I said earlier he is very good

But his career defining fights are yet to come. Proving the Cain fight wasnt a fluke, fighting a striker who is more than ''Ok for MMA'' in Reem, and fighting a guy like Cormier who will take him down.

Again, he's very good, but these are the fights that will make him great

The truth is the prob with Dos is that he didn't fight under the Pride banner and unless a fighter does that they really don't count. So why don't you make me a list of your God Fedors resume and his top wins and show it to us.

[turbotime]

Was this the first PRIDE event you've seen?

[Stoo]

Retarded brand argument again.

I think it's pretty clear form my post that with his already solid resume and his up coming defining fights, Junior is in a very good position to take over Fedor, especially if he beats Cain, Reem and Cormier as opposed to the list of guys you mentioned who cant even slipp a jab