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Old 06-28-2012, 07:24 AM   #16
MadcapMaxie
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Default Re: Joe Frazier vs Jack Dempsey ?

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What's all this 'Dempsey has better/superior power', based on what exactly? Taking 1000 punches to KO out the former weight lifter turned tough man champs in Firpo and Willard, aka the heavy bags? He did fail to put away the much smaller Gibbons and Prime Miske, yet his power is too much for Frazier? I don't think so

This is a battle of left hookers and the best left hook wins, not just the most powerful but the quickest and best timing with the most variety. I think Frazier is the better left hooker of the 2 and bigger and stronger so he could back Jack up. Defence and speed wise, it's pretty much even.

Dempsey probably get's off first against a slow starting Frazier, who would take over after 3 rounds and breaks Dempsey down to stop him around the 6th-8th. Although Frazier could start fast on occasion against fellow left hookers, see Bob Foster, hooking with Frazier does play into his hands
This. Dempsey is no Foreman and his speed isn't significant enough nor his skills good enough to win him this fight.
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Old 06-28-2012, 07:25 AM   #17
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Default Re: Joe Frazier vs Jack Dempsey ?

Dempsey was a savage from the first bell and threw straighter, shorter punches. Frazier had good head movement, but threw wilder punches such as that looping left hook.

Both fighters had problems against boxers with a good jab. This would be a brawl, however, and I just favor Dempsey's slashing punches to do some damage. Dempsey by stoppage for me, but it's a tough fight to call.
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Old 06-28-2012, 07:27 AM   #18
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Default Re: Joe Frazier vs Jack Dempsey ?

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This. Dempsey is no Foreman and his speed isn't significant enough nor his skills good enough to win him this fight.
Foreman destroyed the smaller man in Frazier. Dempsey destroyed men far bigger than he in his own era. Don't underestimate Dempsey's power. After all, he was being outboxed by Jack Sharkey, and all it took was a short left hook over the top to end it then and there...
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Old 06-28-2012, 08:31 AM   #19
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Default Re: Joe Frazier vs Jack Dempsey ?

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Foreman destroyed the smaller man in Frazier. Dempsey destroyed men far bigger than he in his own era. Don't underestimate Dempsey's power. After all, he was being outboxed by Jack Sharkey, and all it took was a short left hook over the top to end it then and there...
Demsepy destroyed two large, slow, plodding, imobile men in an old, inactive Willard and the worst contender i've ever seen in Firpo and it took about 6 knockdowns each before they gave in. Sharkey was also KO'd by Carnera so i guess he too has massive power. Please do not assume because the significantly larger, stronger Foreman beat Frazier (couldn't keep him down) that Dempsey would do the same. Dempsey's best performance is usually said to be the Willard fight where he admitted that he actually weighed 180, Frazier at his best was about 205. Frazier got up from getting lifted of the canvas by perhaps the hardest punching heavyweight champ in history and Dempsey got KO'd cold by a guy not known for power.

In Frazier, Dempsey will be fighting a more skilled, refined and more methodical version of himself who is also bigger and stronger. If you don't think weight will play its part in this fight look at Foster vs Frazier.
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Old 06-28-2012, 08:41 AM   #20
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Default Re: Joe Frazier vs Jack Dempsey ?

Frazier's on a whole nother Level
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Old 06-28-2012, 09:17 AM   #21
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Default Re: Joe Frazier vs Jack Dempsey ?

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Demsepy destroyed two large, slow, plodding, imobile men in an old, inactive Willard and the worst contender i've ever seen in Firpo and it took about 6 knockdowns each before they gave in. Sharkey was also KO'd by Carnera so i guess he too has massive power. Please do not assume because the significantly larger, stronger Foreman beat Frazier (couldn't keep him down) that Dempsey would do the same. Dempsey's best performance is usually said to be the Willard fight where he admitted that he actually weighed 180, Frazier at his best was about 205. Frazier got up from getting lifted of the canvas by perhaps the hardest punching heavyweight champ in history and Dempsey got KO'd cold by a guy not known for power.

In Frazier, Dempsey will be fighting a more skilled, refined and more methodical version of himself who is also bigger and stronger. If you don't think weight will play its part in this fight look at Foster vs Frazier.
I try not too look at things like weight when comparing fighters in two completely separate eras. Generally, heavyweights have got heavier as the years have gone by.

As for comparing the size of the men they faced, it's probably not relevant as Dempsey and Frazier are similar in stature anyway. I was simply trying to point to the fact that, no, Dempsey wasn't Foreman, but he had vicious punch power. Sharkey had a good chin, he held up to and beat George Godfrey (by all accounts a big puncher) and Max Schmeling, (and Carnera first time round), and, as I say, Sharkey was out for Dempsey's left hook.

Also, I'm not sure if Frazier is particularly more skilled. Frazier had better head movement, but Dempsey had good footwork in my opinion, he was a skilled fighter.

Anyway, like I said in another post its a tough call, I just think Dempsey would catch Frazier with straighter, slashing punches while Joe tried to bustle and hook his way inside.
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Old 06-28-2012, 09:31 AM   #22
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Default Re: Joe Frazier vs Jack Dempsey ?

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Originally Posted by PowerPuncher View Post
What's all this 'Dempsey has better/superior power', based on what exactly? Taking 1000 punches to KO out the former weight lifter turned tough man champs in Firpo and Willard, aka the heavy bags?
Exactly which larger fighters, or indeed world class fighters of any size did Frazier stop in the first few rounds?

You seem to have pointed out the biggest flaw in your own argument.

Quote:
He did fail to put away the much smaller Gibbons and Prime Miske, yet his power is too much for Frazier? I don't think so
The crucial difference is that Gibbons and Miske were defensive fighters while Frazier was a come forward swarmer.

This is going to be a head on colision, and the guy who gets the most work done the earliest is going to have a big advantage.

Quote:
This is a battle of left hookers and the best left hook wins, not just the most powerful but the quickest and best timing with the most variety. I think Frazier is the better left hooker of the 2 and bigger and stronger so he could back Jack up. Defence and speed wise, it's pretty much even.
Frazier has the faster left hook while Dempsey has the harder. Either way, I don't see why this should necisarily tunr on who has the best left hook.

Quote:
Dempsey probably get's off first against a slow starting Frazier, who would take over after 3 rounds and breaks Dempsey down to stop him around the 6th-8th. Although Frazier could start fast on occasion against fellow left hookers, see Bob Foster, hooking with Frazier does play into his hands
If Frazier is going to take 3 rounds to get started against Dempsey while employing a come forward style then he is f****d, simple as.

We are talking about one of the most murederous early finishers in the history of the sport, and there are only realy two ways to beat him. You either fight a defensive fight, or you get him before he gets you.

It is no good planning to start slowly and establish your workrate in the sixth round, because by then it will be too late.
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Old 06-28-2012, 09:33 AM   #23
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Default Re: Joe Frazier vs Jack Dempsey ?

Dempsey was a ludicrously fast starter and Frazier liked to get oiled. If Frazier can get out of the second with his sense in tact i'd pick him...i'll pick Frazier under the rules of the Firpo fight and Dempsey under the rules of the Ali fight, ironically enough.
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Old 06-28-2012, 09:36 AM   #24
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Default Re: Joe Frazier vs Jack Dempsey ?

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Originally Posted by MadcapMaxie View Post
Demsepy destroyed two large, slow, plodding, imobile men in an old, inactive Willard and the worst contender i've ever seen in Firpo and it took about 6 knockdowns each before they gave in.
Well at least he destroyed some larger fighters!

Why don't you give us a list of the ones that Frazier destroyed, or beat for that matter?

Anything would be better than nothing.

I have often lamented that many of the people on this site are obsessed with size to the point of mental illness, but many seem to use the size argument against early fighters, even when it happens to be in their favour.!
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Old 06-28-2012, 09:37 AM   #25
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Default Re: Joe Frazier vs Jack Dempsey ?

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In Frazier, Dempsey will be fighting a more skilled, refined and more methodical version of himself who is also bigger and stronger.
They are not even particularly similar stylisticaly.
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Old 06-28-2012, 09:53 AM   #26
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Default Re: Joe Frazier vs Jack Dempsey ?

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Originally Posted by PowerPuncher View Post
What's all this 'Dempsey has better/superior power', based on what exactly? Taking 1000 punches to KO out the former weight lifter turned tough man champs in Firpo and Willard, aka the heavy bags? He did fail to put away the much smaller Gibbons and Prime Miske, yet his power is too much for Frazier? I don't think so

This is a battle of left hookers and the best left hook wins, not just the most powerful but the quickest and best timing with the most variety. I think Frazier is the better left hooker of the 2 and bigger and stronger so he could back Jack up. Defence and speed wise, it's pretty much even.

Dempsey probably get's off first against a slow starting Frazier, who would take over after 3 rounds and breaks Dempsey down to stop him around the 6th-8th. Although Frazier could start fast on occasion against fellow left hookers, see Bob Foster, hooking with Frazier does play into his hands
How many punches did Frazier land on Mathis, Quarry,Chuvalo ,Bonavena , Bugner, Ali ? All were on their feet at the end of the fight. In fact ,which rated heavy did Frazier ever knock unconscious?

Dempsey had a right hand too, it was called Iron Mike, ring a bell?
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Old 06-28-2012, 10:09 AM   #27
MadcapMaxie
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Default Re: Joe Frazier vs Jack Dempsey ?

[quote=janitor;13214400]
Quote:

Well at least he destroyed some larger fighters!

Why don't you give us a list of the ones that Frazier destroyed, or beat for that matter?

Anything would be better than nothing.

I have often lamented that many of the people on this site are obsessed with size to the point of mental illness, but many seem to use the size argument against early fighters, even when it happens to be in their favour.!
Just glance at Fraziers record and you'll see he fought on the whole much bigger men than Dempsey did.

Buster Mathis is no better nor worse than Firpo...a bigger man Frazier destoryed. There you go.

Say what you will but size especially when it comes to fighters of a certain quality does play a role, the larger man has some benefits on his side. The saying goes good big man beats good little man. In any case I'm not saying Frazier wins based on size but it is an additional benefit Frazier possesses that gives me more leverage to pick him. Fraziers wins because he is technically more sound, faster, more accurate and better at choosign when to throw his punches, he was IMO more durable than Dempsey and maybe not as hard a puncher as Dempsey (big maybe) i think he was a sharper puncher and certanily more accurate. Add to this his stamina, size and heart and I think he takes it in a hard fought battle. Some how I don't see Dempsey taking the shots from Foreman and continually getting up.
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Old 06-28-2012, 10:12 AM   #28
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Default Re: Joe Frazier vs Jack Dempsey ?

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They are not even particularly similar stylisticaly.
Come forward, pressure fighters who used good upper body and head movement and had a devastating left hook. Dempsey was more wild with his punches and was usually at mid distance, Frazier's punches were more tight and faster, fought best at close distance. I'd say they're a bit similiar.
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Old 06-28-2012, 10:13 AM   #29
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Default Re: Joe Frazier vs Jack Dempsey ?

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Originally Posted by bazza12 View Post
Foreman destroyed the smaller man in Frazier. Dempsey destroyed men far bigger than he in his own era. Don't underestimate Dempsey's power. After all, he was being outboxed by Jack Sharkey, and all it took was a short left hook over the top to end it then and there...
You mean a crunching shot to the balls? Dempsey should have been DQed
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Old 06-28-2012, 10:14 AM   #30
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Default Re: Joe Frazier vs Jack Dempsey ?

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and, as I say, Sharkey was out for Dempsey's left hook.
No he wasn't. He got hit in the friggin Balls. Watch the tape.
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