Should elbows to the head of a grounded opponent be banned?

[Lefthooktommy]

Haggis, I would argue that the people that get queasy from the sight of blood in a mma fight might be watching the wrong sport to begin with. Plus fighting in a cage doesn't really scream family friendly.

[lobk]

Originally Posted by Haggis McJackass

Just quickly (I'm on my way out), I have no problem with standing elbows. They are much less likely to cut.

The same can be said about punches. In a mount and hammering down fist is more likely to open a cut then standing and trading.

While we are at it lets outlaw other moves that can cause a fight to stop or hamper a fighter. Why don't we outlaw arm bars, since it is likely to break an arm. Let see what else....leg lock since it can tear ligaments. Hell lets not forget leg kicks because it can slow down the other guy and impact the way he fights.

[yaca you]

I think elbows to a downed opponent should be illegal.

They are banned in kickboxing for the reason that they easily create cuts. But as it turns out on the ground they are even more effective at creating cuts than any other strike even without using power.

I dont have a problem with standing elbows, but on the ground they are much harder to defend and can be repeatedly thrown with the intention of creating a cut. fighters from the bottom can control the arms and wrists of their opponent to stop incoming punches, the hips can also be controlled to stop big punches but small short elbows like the ones cain velasqes used on Bigfoot, like Bones jones uses and florian's swiping elbows are much harder to defend. Their is no denying it elbows have created the some of the most vicious cuts in mma history despite those pictures posted a few pages back.

[boranbkk]

Originally Posted by Rob_Floyd

Kick:

[IMG]***********.mmaconvert.com/wp-content/uploads/post-images/diego_sanchez_after_penn.jpg[/IMG]

Kick:

[IMG]***********.fiveknuckles.com/assets/images/fighters/marvin-eastman.jpg[/IMG]

Knee:

[IMG]********cdn2.cagepotato.com/wp-content/uploads/cub-swanson-1.jpg.jpeg[/IMG]

Knee:

[IMG]***********.thefightnerd.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Kalib-Starnes-Cut.jpg[/IMG]

Hammerfists:

[IMG]********en.susumug.com/ufc/090613/susumu09.jpg[/IMG]

Knees:

[IMG]********cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/805/824/KazushiSakuraba_display_image.jpg?1300892690[/IMG]

Punch:

[IMG]********i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc294/JalacoJones/5185-ZaromskisPointon_002_CR24.jpg[/IMG]


I could keep going...

Originally Posted by BobDigi5060

[IMG]***********.sportofboxing.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Roy-Nelson.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]********marhuz.ucoz.ru/_fr/1/9398868.jpg[/IMG]

moar

Originally Posted by Rob_Floyd

Knee:

[IMG]********imagec.ufc.com/****%253A%252F%252Fmedia.ufc.tv%252Fphoto_galleries%252FUFConFX4_04_Catone_Camozzi%252FUFConFX4_04_C atone_Camozzi_05.jpg?mw300-mh600[/IMG]

Originally Posted by Rob_Floyd

I'm not saying elbows don't cause cuts, but I do think that's an awful reason to ban them. All strikes cause cuts. It's just a part of the sport. Elbows can be, and are, used as concussive blows, just like punches/knees/kicks. An elbow can knock a guy out of a fight. You take them out, you take out another way to achieve victory.

Originally Posted by Primate

Elbows opening fight-ending cuts is a largely over stated issue, and elbows certainly aren't the only thing that can open a fight ending cut.

Originally Posted by lobk

The same can be said about punches. In a mount and hammering down fist is more likely to open a cut then standing and trading.

I don't really have an opinion on whether elbows should be banned on the floor in MMA or not, so I don't know.

What I do know is elbows.

The only standup sport that allows full elbow strikes is Thai rules Muay Thai where the elbow strike is a crucial element of the sport. MT fighters understand and respect the elbow more than any other stand up weapon cos of all the game changing elements it brings to a fight.

The guys I've quoted above are underestimating and misunderstanding the use of the elbow in a fighters aresnal and the psychological edge it can bring. Yes any strke can cut an opponent, but elbow stikes have about a 65% higher cut rate than any other strike. More often than not if you land an elbow near the point as oppossed to the high end of the forearm you're gonna leave a cut, this is simply not the case with other strikes.

The other missed point the guys above have made and this is a massive difference when compared to other strikes is the elbow retains its lethal sharpness and KO capability even when a fighter is tired or exhausted unlike most other strikes, it doesn't need the freshness of snap to do damage, a simple slight glancing elbow will open up a cut. It's a game changer as any MT fighter will tell you, down on the cards start letting those elbows fly, either for the cut stoppage, the KO or the psychological fear aspect elbows can cause in some fighters by drawing too much defensive attention.

And as for the "fight-ending cuts is a largely over stated issue" this is just not true. If an MT fight is stopped due to a cut 99% of the time that cut would have come form an elbow.

I realise the guys above are probabaly talking in an MMA context, but that doesn't change anything regarding elbows whether you fight MMA, MT or on the street.

[davidwatts]

i'm ok with forearms and elbows to the face of an opponent, i don't like the point of the elbow smashing down on the top of a guy's head though.
as far as i'm concerned thats on par with hitting the back of the head. its sickening imo.
when you think how thin the top of the skull is, and that its trying to protect the brain, yet its ok to rain down pointed elbow attacks on it, imo its unsafe and frankly stupid.
if i were a fighter there is simply no way i'd hit a guy on top of his head with my elbow.

[Primate]

Originally Posted by boranbkk

And as for the "fight-ending cuts is a largely over stated issue" this is just not true. If an MT fight is stopped due to a cut 99% of the time that cut would have come form an elbow.

Specifically in MMA, when compared to cuts opened by other strikes, cuts from elbows are not the bogeyman some guys make them out to be.

[Stoo]

Originally Posted by Haggis McJackass

I did a quick compare yesterday with four of my friends, and it was surprising just how much variance there was in how pointed our elbows were.

[yaca you]

Originally Posted by Primate

Specifically in MMA, when compared to cuts opened by other strikes, cuts from elbows are not the bogeyman some guys make them out to be.

thats a vague statement Primate.

What would you say about elbows causing cuts specifically? Are you saying that elbows dont cause a lot of fight ending cuts? because clearly thats untrue.

Would you say they are the best weapon to cause fight ending cuts?

Would you say that on the ground from the bottom they are more difficult to defend than punches?

[Primate]

Originally Posted by yaca you

thats a vague statement Primate.

What would you say about elbows causing cuts specifically? Are you saying that elbows dont cause a lot of fight ending cuts? because clearly thats untrue.

Would you say they are the best weapon to cause fight ending cuts?

Would you say that on the ground from the bottom they are more difficult to defend than punches?

Elbows can cause fight ending cuts.
So can knees
So can kicks
So can punches
So can head butts.

Elbows also may not cause fight ending cuts.
Ditto for knees, kicks, etc.

Elbows may end the fight without causing a cut.
Ditto for the rest.

Elbows may cause cuts more often than some of those other techniques, but it doesn't happen as often (in MMA) as some people like to make out, and it certainly doesn't cause fight-ending/altering cuts as often as people like to assume.

Removing elbows because they cause cuts is unnecessary.

If an elbow causes a cut that ends a fight, that's part of the game. Just like a punch can break an orbital and end a fight or a knee can break a nose or a kick can break an arm.

It's all part of the sport.

[boxingcar]

No. Soccer kicks , knees on a grounded opponent are already banned. If you also ban elbows on a grounded opponent...You might as well ban punches . (you can still cut your opponent with the gloves).

It's mma. Not "Men's Greco-Roman wrestling"....or ADCC.

[Stoo]

For **** sake, just read it all and Im still laughing at the OP here

About 1 fight out of a hundred gets stopped due to cuts, but we should ban elbows because Haggis' mates have pointy elbows

you cant make this shit up

[boranbkk]

I don't think anyone's calling for the banning of elbows due to cuts except Haggis nad his mates. I was just simply pointing out some facts about elbows that seem to have been over looked by alot of the previous posts I'd read. Cos let's face it most MMA boys don't know how to throw elbows anyway!

Simplez.

[Stoo]

I think Condit and Florian are probably the best Ive seen throwing elbows in MMA, well they throw them more regularly than other fighters anyway

[yaca you]

Originally Posted by Primate

Elbows can cause fight ending cuts.
So can knees
So can kicks
So can punches
So can head butts.

Elbows also may not cause fight ending cuts.
Ditto for knees, kicks, etc.

Elbows may end the fight without causing a cut.
Ditto for the rest.

Elbows may cause cuts more often than some of those other techniques, but it doesn't happen as often (in MMA) as some people like to make out, and it certainly doesn't cause fight-ending/altering cuts as often as people like to assume.

Removing elbows because they cause cuts is unnecessary.

If an elbow causes a cut that ends a fight, that's part of the game. Just like a punch can break an orbital and end a fight or a knee can break a nose or a kick can break an arm.

It's all part of the sport.

You didnt answer my questions but thats ok.

The causing of cuts isnt the only reason for keeping elbows out of GNP. the space needed to deliver an elbow is much less than it would be to deliver a powerful punch, also you can keep your wrist closer to your chest while throwing elbows making it more difficult to isolate an arm for the opponent.

[Ne5ville14]

Originally Posted by Haggis McJackass

The fact of the matter is, it's known that deep forehead cuts open up easier from elbows landed from top position than they do from any other strike. That's exactly the reason why PRIDE banned them outright. That's also why the UFC banned 12 to 6 elbows.

Please...if you got any valid good argument proving this please, educate us...cause you know what Haggis...I call BS on that.

I honestly think you pulled that out of your ass.

12-6 Elbow arn't banned because of cut....they are banned because they could cause, maybe, skull fracture....completely different.


And yes Haggis, elbow on the head of a downed opponent are a non-issue....


If you don't like it don't watch it...but FFS don't ****in change it...they already took out more then enough...


You understand know why I said arguing for arguing....if this thread isn't arguing for arguing what is ?


EDIT: Don't botter giving me any information about cut....Borrankk just gave me what I needed