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View Poll Results: Should they change the unified rules regarding elbows?
Get rid of elbows to the head entirely 2 7.14%
Get rid of elbows to the head of a downed opponent 6 21.43%
Keep the elbow rules as they currently are 9 32.14%
Bring back 12 to 6 elbows 11 39.29%
Voters: 28. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-04-2012, 10:54 AM   #61
Ne5ville14
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Default Re: Should elbows to the head of a grounded opponent be banned?

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How could I have missed that ?

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Old 07-04-2012, 11:14 AM   #62
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Default Re: Should elbows to the head of a grounded opponent be banned?

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Originally Posted by Haggis McJackass View Post
It doesn't follow that you must ridicule all other stances though.

What does posting pics of cuts caused by punches or kicks do to make my opinion invalid?

The fact of the matter is, it's known that deep forehead cuts open up easier from elbows landed from top position than they do from any other strike. That's exactly the reason why PRIDE banned them outright. That's also why the UFC banned 12 to 6 elbows.

For simply stating this, and saying that IMO elbows should go back to being as they were in PRIDE but that other opinions are legitimate as well, look at the response. Look at the quality of the discussion in the thread.

Pride banned them because it encourages fighters to take it to the mat. Punching leaves you vulnerable to armbars and triangles. Elbows are much safer and equally devastating. The entire point of pride, was like you said, to be a street fight. Stomps and shit are fine, but they almost bought into the negative MMA stereotype of two dudes humping.

The 12-6 elbows were banned because some dipshit watched those brick breaking competitions on ESPN and thought they were too violent. Nothing to do with cuts.

Imo, elbows of all kinds should be legal, and I would like to see stomps, kicks, and knees to the head of a downed opponent. The latter will probably never happen, especially after all the UFC has done to try and clean up the image of the sport. I can live with it. I'm satisfied with the current product.
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Old 07-04-2012, 11:20 AM   #63
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Default Re: Should elbows to the head of a grounded opponent be banned?

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Originally Posted by yaca you View Post
thats a vague statement Primate.

What would you say about elbows causing cuts specifically? Are you saying that elbows dont cause a lot of fight ending cuts? because clearly thats untrue.

Would you say they are the best weapon to cause fight ending cuts?

Would you say that on the ground from the bottom they are more difficult to defend than punches?

How is it untrue? ALL CUTS COMBINED FROM ALL STRIKES end very few fights.

Elbows probably aren't the best weapon, unintentional head butts seem to do it far more often. We'll start decapitating fighters at the weigh ins, problem solved.

Yes, they are more difficult to defend, that's part of the game. That's why Pride banned them. As an organization, they chose action over substance. They wanted knockouts and submissions. The kind of submissions and knockouts you see when fighters are forced to punch and posture their way into an upkick, triangle, armbar, etc.
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Old 07-04-2012, 11:22 AM   #64
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Default Re: Should elbows to the head of a grounded opponent be banned?

Yes, they cause cuts.
Ruins a fight.
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Old 07-04-2012, 11:39 AM   #65
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Default Re: Should elbows to the head of a grounded opponent be banned?

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Originally Posted by HeGlassedMe View Post
Yes, they cause cuts.
Ruins a fight.
How often does this happen? Present some statistics.
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Old 07-04-2012, 11:54 AM   #66
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Default Re: Should elbows to the head of a grounded opponent be banned?

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Originally Posted by Lucky Rutledge View Post
How is it untrue? ALL CUTS COMBINED FROM ALL STRIKES end very few fights.

Elbows probably aren't the best weapon, unintentional head butts seem to do it far more often. We'll start decapitating fighters at the weigh ins, problem solved.

Yes, they are more difficult to defend, that's part of the game. That's why Pride banned them. As an organization, they chose action over substance. They wanted knockouts and submissions. The kind of submissions and knockouts you see when fighters are forced to punch and posture their way into an upkick, triangle, armbar, etc.

Your right. Actually cuts from elbows do not officially end many MMA fights it is something like 1%.

They do cause cuts however far more often but it is uncommon that the fight is ended by the cut itself even in the Cain Valasquez fight was technically not stopped due to the cut. Officially it was stopped by TKO from punches.

I dont like that they are used in GNP, (arguably being the most powerful weapon) they do often create cuts and are difficult to defend. especially since when you watch how some fighters use them they really cant be considered elbows at all but rather forearm strikes. Guys that use them correctly with the point of their elbow will cause cuts more often. example florian and jones.

Like I posted before my dislike for them is beyond the danger of cuts, the dynamic of the fight itself is changed by elbows. potentially they can be used to inflict a high number of cuts or can be just a powerful weapon that doesnt need a postured up position to do a lot of damage. The postured up position would create openings for the defender. Nick Diaz talked about this in an interview.

Ill admit I think GNP is the ugliest part of MMA. it becomes more difficult without the use of elbows adding more risk of submission attempts and sweeps making it more appealing to me. I also dont like soccer kicks and stomps I think Stikeforce had it right. I assume Im in the minority.


here's an elbow for you crazy elbow fans!
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[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uH8EMPI7zY[/ame]

Last edited by yaca you; 07-04-2012 at 12:24 PM.
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Old 07-04-2012, 12:25 PM   #67
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Default Re: Should elbows to the head of a grounded opponent be banned?

Fair enough.
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Old 07-04-2012, 12:29 PM   #68
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Default Re: Should elbows to the head of a grounded opponent be banned?

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Seriously though that is ****ing nasty
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Old 07-04-2012, 12:33 PM   #69
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Default Re: Should elbows to the head of a grounded opponent be banned?

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Seriously though that is ****ing nasty
This is what happens when elbows are allowed on the loose... hide your kids, hide your wife.

Obviously stoo your anti ear.
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Old 07-04-2012, 12:35 PM   #70
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Default Re: Should elbows to the head of a grounded opponent be banned?

I guess it's an example of an octagon related deaf...I'll stop now

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Old 07-04-2012, 02:16 PM   #71
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Default Re: Should elbows to the head of a grounded opponent be banned?

Jones should not be compared to Florian when it comes to elbows. Florian legitimately tried to cut with his; Jones tries to knock you out/break your face. I'm pretty certain that he has only caused two bad cuts (Machida and Rampage) and neither were fight stoppers.
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Old 07-04-2012, 04:15 PM   #72
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Default Re: Should elbows to the head of a grounded opponent be banned?

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Originally Posted by boranbkk View Post
I don't really have an opinion on whether elbows should be banned on the floor in MMA or not, so I don't know.

What I do know is elbows.

The only standup sport that allows full elbow strikes is Thai rules Muay Thai where the elbow strike is a crucial element of the sport. MT fighters understand and respect the elbow more than any other stand up weapon cos of all the game changing elements it brings to a fight.

The guys I've quoted above are underestimating and misunderstanding the use of the elbow in a fighters aresnal and the psychological edge it can bring. Yes any strke can cut an opponent, but elbow stikes have about a 65% higher cut rate than any other strike. More often than not if you land an elbow near the point as oppossed to the high end of the forearm you're gonna leave a cut, this is simply not the case with other strikes.

The other missed point the guys above have made and this is a massive difference when compared to other strikes is the elbow retains its lethal sharpness and KO capability even when a fighter is tired or exhausted unlike most other strikes, it doesn't need the freshness of snap to do damage, a simple slight glancing elbow will open up a cut. It's a game changer as any MT fighter will tell you, down on the cards start letting those elbows fly, either for the cut stoppage, the KO or the psychological fear aspect elbows can cause in some fighters by drawing too much defensive attention.
Collegiate Wrestling can spawn a psychological edge, just as a Black Belt in JJ, size advantage, Olympic Medal, MT or Kickboxing backround, etc etc. A psychological advantage is not exclusive to elbows in full guard.

If fighter A is going to let an elbow or two hinder his performance then it is nothing I can fix.. This is a combat sport, and these are competitors.. They signed the contract, and put their health on the line. Hundreds of men and women pull out a victory in the face of fear, we see it happen all the time.

We've seen the edge of a glove cause a nasty gash.. The cuts that you speak of happen all the time, and most often from non-elbows.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boranbkk View Post
And as for the "fight-ending cuts is a largely over stated issue" this is just not true. If an MT fight is stopped due to a cut 99% of the time that cut would have come form an elbow.

I realise the guys above are probabaly talking in an MMA context, but that doesn't change anything regarding elbows whether you fight MMA, MT or on the street.
This is completely irrelevant.. Your talking Muay Thai, and they aren't landing elbows on a downed opponent in MT, let alone grappling with each other.

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Originally Posted by yaca you View Post
here's an elbow for you crazy elbow fans!
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James Thompson had his ear busted by a punch, so did an Antonio Margarito victim.. It's all part of the fight game.. Nothing new is under the sun.
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Old 07-04-2012, 04:18 PM   #73
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Default Re: Should elbows to the head of a grounded opponent be banned?

Bottom line is fights ending prematurely because of elbows on a downed opponent does not occur often, and not often enough to warrant a change in The UFC.

It's only an opinion, and one I do respect.. But, what I don't like is Haggis exaggerating trying to get his point across.. He has named one, just one fight that ended because of an cut caused by an elbow in the guard.. A fight that was one sided from the opening bell.

Last edited by BobDigi5060; 07-04-2012 at 04:29 PM.
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Old 07-04-2012, 04:49 PM   #74
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Default Re: Should elbows to the head of a grounded opponent be banned?

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Originally Posted by boranbkk View Post
I don't really have an opinion on whether elbows should be banned on the floor in MMA or not, so I don't know.

What I do know is elbows.

The only standup sport that allows full elbow strikes is Thai rules Muay Thai where the elbow strike is a crucial element of the sport. MT fighters understand and respect the elbow more than any other stand up weapon cos of all the game changing elements it brings to a fight.

The guys I've quoted above are underestimating and misunderstanding the use of the elbow in a fighters aresnal and the psychological edge it can bring. Yes any strke can cut an opponent, but elbow stikes have about a 65% higher cut rate than any other strike. More often than not if you land an elbow near the point as oppossed to the high end of the forearm you're gonna leave a cut, this is simply not the case with other strikes.

The other missed point the guys above have made and this is a massive difference when compared to other strikes is the elbow retains its lethal sharpness and KO capability even when a fighter is tired or exhausted unlike most other strikes, it doesn't need the freshness of snap to do damage, a simple slight glancing elbow will open up a cut. It's a game changer as any MT fighter will tell you, down on the cards start letting those elbows fly, either for the cut stoppage, the KO or the psychological fear aspect elbows can cause in some fighters by drawing too much defensive attention.

And as for the "fight-ending cuts is a largely over stated issue" this is just not true. If an MT fight is stopped due to a cut 99% of the time that cut would have come form an elbow.

I realise the guys above are probabaly talking in an MMA context, but that doesn't change anything regarding elbows whether you fight MMA, MT or on the street.

No one is underestimating its effectiveness. The point people who you quote are trying to make is cuts happens. Don't want to have elbows raining down on you, don't end up in a mount.
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Old 07-04-2012, 05:03 PM   #75
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Default Re: Should elbows to the head of a grounded opponent be banned?

Its fighting cuts come with the territory

why eliminate a legitimate move

great fighters can overcome the blood and fight on
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