Who Do You Rate Higher: Jack Dempsey or Jack Johnson ??

[Mendoza]

Originally Posted by KuRuPT

Johnson beats Jeffries from 1904 onward, I have no doubt about this in my mind.

You may want to reconsider. 1905? Johnson could not even tame Marvin Hart in 1905. I doubt Johnson beats Jeffries in 1905. Maybe after Jeffries was inactive and fat for years. In 1909 Jeffries tired a comeback in the gym and looked horrible.


Keep in mind, Johnson in 1909 was knocked silly in a 4 round exhibition match by Gun BoatSmith, out boxed by middle weight O'Brien according to quite a few sources, some of which are local, and floored by middle weight Ketchel.


Johnson beat the shell of Jeffries in 1910, but Jeffries who had not fought in 5 years, and lost most of what he had did manage to cut Johnson, and in round 11 hurt him as " Johnson wobbled perceptively from a body shot ". Jeffries was just too old, tired and slow to capitalize on it.

[McGrain]

I think Jeffries would tear Johnson a new one in 1905.

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by Mendoza

You may want to reconsider. 1905? Johnson could not even tame Marvin Hart in 1905. I doubt Johnson beats Jeffries in 1905. Maybe after Jeffries was inactive and fat for years. In 1909 Jeffries tired a comeback in the gym and looked horrible.


Keep in mind, Johnson in 1909 was knocked silly in a 4 round exhibition match by Gun BoatSmith, out boxed by middle weight O'Brien according to quite a few sources, some of which are local, and floored by middle weight Ketchel.


Johnson beat the shell of Jeffries in 1910, but Jeffries who had not fought in 5 years, and lost most of what he had did manage to cut Johnson, and in round 11 hurt him as " Johnson wobbled perceptively from a body shot ". Jeffries was just too old, tired and slow to capitalize on it.

O Brien was the reigning lightheavyweight champion when he went 6 rds to a no dec with Johnson.


According to Gunboat Smith, in a taped interview in 1972, he put Johnson halfway through the ropes in a sparring session. No -one was knocked silly. Ketchel scaled 170.25lbs when he fought Johnson so he was no middleweight.

Jeffries signed to fight Johnson in August 1909, by the end of October of that year he scaled 235lbs.
He was sparring daily with Sam Berger,and charging the public to see it, indeed he was hauled up before a court for doing just that.


Johnson entered the ring with a cut on his lip sustained in a sparring session with Kid Carter, leading up to the fight.

Jeffries did not cut Johnson.

Johnson finished the fight unmarked except for a trace of blood from the lip.


It was remarked upon in all the papers that he showed no facial damage after the fight.

Jeffries did not wobble Johnson in the 11th rd.


Johnson said he felt only one of Jeffries punches and that was a body shot in the 4th rd,the only round that Jeffries won.
After the fight Johnson stated, "he can't hit"

The referee and promoter Tex Rickard said Johnson won as he pleased and could have finished it after the 4th rd, Bob Fitzsimmons confirmed this opinion.


I have posted round by round ringside commentaries several times and if I could be arsed to expose you yet again as the lying piece of shit you are ,I would do so now , but you know what ?


I cannot be bothered.

[KuRuPT]

Originally Posted by McGrain

I think Jeffries would tear Johnson a new one in 1905.

Surely you jest? What makes you say this?

[Bummy Davis]

Dempsey for me he stood out over all of his predecessors, he was dynamic, ferocious, fast and full of action and meanness ...Johnson was an excellent stylist with decent power but for me Dempsey stands out above Johnson and Jeffries and the rest.

[McGrain]

Originally Posted by KuRuPT

Surely you jest? What makes you say this?

He was in his absolute prime in 1904 and Johnson was yet to hit his. Jeffries has to crack him in this situation.

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by McGrain

He was in his absolute prime in 1904 and Johnson was yet to hit his. Jeffries has to crack him in this situation.

In 1905 it might well have been a fore-runner of Frazier v Ali 1.I would definitely give Jeffries the nod prior to that. After 1905? Only one winner imo , and he is not vanilla hued.

N.B.Jeffries was down to 235lbs at the end of October 1909, when he came back from Carlsbad



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[KuRuPT]

Originally Posted by McGrain

He was in his absolute prime in 1904 and Johnson was yet to hit his. Jeffries has to crack him in this situation.

You don't think Johnson always had the style to beat Jeffries... Jeffries even said the same thing... In 1905 what exactly was he going to do differently as far as tactics.

[McGrain]

Originally Posted by KuRuPT

You don't think Johnson always had the style to beat Jeffries... Jeffries even said the same thing... In 1905 what exactly was he going to do differently as far as tactics.

Jeffries will fight the same fight as he did against Munro, which is very similar to the fight that Hart fought against Johnson.

[KuRuPT]

That didn't get hart anything but to get bloodied and bruised up and getting a gift decision. Difference is that Munro is no Jack Johnson and doesn't have the power to make Jeffries respect him like Johnson does.

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by McGrain

Jeffries will fight the same fight as he did against Munro, which is very similar to the fight that Hart fought against Johnson.

Jeffries would be in top shape for Johnson , he was not for Munro ,simply because he well knew it was a travesty of a fight.

1904 Jeffries would be able to "cram on the sails", react quicker to Johnson' s moves ,and get his own body attack off more effectively than he did at Reno . Jeffries would have his old time stamina and ,confidence the doubts that crippled his attempt to regain the title would not be in his psyche .


Prime Johnson I believe, had the style to defuse Jeffries onslaught but 1904 Johnson was not prime imo.
As late as March 1905 ,[when he fought Hart],Johnson was a slender heavyweight around 20lbs lighter than the prime champ who waltzed a tired Jeff around, clamping his arms close to his sides, rendering him harmlessly ineffectual .

[dmt]

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

Jack Dempsey ducked the best black fighters of his generation. Jack Johnson may have ducked them when he became champion, but at least he fought them and beat them at one point in his career. He has their names on his win resume, Dempsey does not.

what black fighters? most of them were either retired or dempseys own sparring partners.

Plus Langford was a light middleweight, that win is laughable.

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by dmt

what black fighters? most of them were either retired or dempseys own sparring partners.

Plus Langford was a light middleweight, that win is laughable.

It wasn't laughable for Langford, he got the biggest hiding of his life.
Oh,and Langford had over 50 fights under his belt when he fought Johnson ,who, at 185lbs was 20lbs below his best weight.

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by Mendoza

Ok, I’ll play along:




As a group, I would say Choynski, Hart, Klondike, and Griffin were better than most of the fighters Johnson gave title matches to, save perhaps Willard who KO’d Johnson. To answer you question, I think you have to examine wether or not Johnson’s opponents were in their primes too.



1 ) I’m not sure when Klondike’s prime was. His first listed match was 1898, and he Ko’d Johnson in 1899. I would say based on that, Klondike was far more of a novice than Johnson was, though in 1899. Johnson’s first listed fight was 1894. You could say Johnson lacked some top level experience going into this match. Klondike beat Johnson in match for the colored title, when Johnson apparently quit like a dog without injury, and failed to come out next round.



2 ) Choynski produced a ten count. The fight took place in Johnson’s home town, and by 1901, Choysnki’s best days were behind him when the fight took place. For the record, Johnson first recorded match was in 1894. He had 24+ recorded matches before he was sparked in 3 rounds vs. Choynski, so calling Johnson a green novice is a bit of a stretch.



Both Klondike and Choynski had some power. Chins do not improve greatly as a career progresses. Post 1905-1915 did Johnson give a title shot to 175+ pound fighter in his prime or near prime with skills and power? I think not.



3 ) Griffin best days were most certainly behind him in 1901, yet he defeated Johnson, and drew with him.


4) The Hart match in 1905 was a high stakes, elimination match, with the winner being billed for a title shot with Jeffries. Johnson did very little in the 2nd half of the fight, and lost it. Neither guy was pre or post prime here.



Summary: Klondike was green. Choysnki past his best. Griffin way outside of his prime. Hart was in his prime.



And finally, if you think Johnson wasn’t in his prime until post 1905 that is your opinion. Just admit Johnson would not likely to defeat Jeffries when Jeffries was champion from 1899-1905.

This has been emphatically refuted by Adam Pollack's primary sourced next day newspaper accounts of the fight.
Johnson was stopped in the 5th rd, after having Klondike on the floor at the start of the fight. According to famous referee George Siler who was ringside Johnson was half starved , he was also just 21 years old.

[McGrain]

Originally Posted by mcvey

Jeffries would be in top shape for Johnson , he was not for Munro

Why do you think he was not in top shape for Munro?

Also, you 'll be looking forwards to Pollack on Johnson?