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Old 07-07-2007, 01:25 PM   #16
RAMPAGE0017
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Default Re: Frazier Nearly Destoryed Ali -

[quote=janitor]
Quote:
Then you simply don't know Louis.

He broke Max Schmeling's spine, and drove Paulino Uzcduns teeth through his mouthpeice.

He lifted 230 lb Tony Galento off the canvas, spun 250 lb Buddy Baer round 360 degrees lifted Tami Maurelio and threw him with single punches.

No, I don't know Louis. And neither do you, so all's either one of us can do is have an opinion. Tony Galento was a D level fighter, and Buddy Baer was no better than his brother. I'm just not a believer in that he had this phenominal power that everyone always goes on about.
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Old 07-07-2007, 01:27 PM   #17
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Default Re: Frazier Nearly Destoryed Ali -

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Ali and Holmes did not have anything aproaching Louis's power. Tyson was a superb ofensive fighter but lacked infighting skills and threw long looped punches relative to Louis.

Since when did power become synonymous with offense?
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Old 07-07-2007, 01:53 PM   #18
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Default Re: Frazier Nearly Destoryed Ali -

[quote]
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Originally Posted by Sizzle
Yeh? I especially liked the way Frazier managed to bob, weave and avoid Foremans slow, telegraphed power punches.
Frazier got cought with the type of hooker-cut punches that mainly Foreman, more so than any other fighter was good at throwing.

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Fraziers defense was rubbish, certainly the worst of the heavyweight swarmers - Tyson, Dempsey and even Marciano.
I don't agree with the statement that his defense was rubbish....
Quote:
Foreman possessed more power, but Louis was a far better puncher with better punch efficiency, and much more accurate shots
.

I agree, but Louis was also far more susseptible to getting hurt by fighters who were no where near as polished as Frazier. The same works both ways.

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Would someone please like to explain to me in detail what "skills" Frazier learnt that Louis didn't because he fought two decades later?
It's not so much a matter of one having more skill than the other, as it is a styles thing. Styles make fights. Louis admitted that Marciano crowded him in a way that would give him trouble even in his prime. Galento was more or less a journeyman left hooker without even a fraction of the talent or athleticism that Frazier had, yet he staggered him in the first and floored him, I believe in the third.

Plain and simple, I just don't feel that Louis woud beat Frazier head to head.. Do I know this to be fact? No. Do I feel that Frazier was better all around than Louis was? No. Again, it's about styles. Louis did not like left hookers or swarmers. He also fought but two black men in 25 title defenses. One of whom was a former light heavyweight who was beaten by James Braddock, while the other was the same age as Louis at 34, and was arguably robbed against Joe in their first fight. Louis was nearly outboxed by a former middleweight who actually moved up in class to avoid the growing level of competition in his perspective division. Louis was decked by Braddock, who hadn't fought in over 2 years, had 25 career losses, was arthritic, and had sustained so many career injuries, that he was borderline disabled when he fought Louis.

People like to comment on Frazier's performance against Foreman, when trying to gain ground in building an argument for Louis beating him head to head. They ignore the fact, however that only one man really made him look bad in 37 career fights. That man was another all time great with one of the hardest punches in history, and demolished Joe when he was on the decline. Louis fans also ignore the fact, that he had not just one or two, but multiple weak performances against fighters who were not even in Foreman's league. Scmeling, Walcott, Braddock, Galento, Conn I, Mauriello, Baer, and a few others.
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Old 07-07-2007, 09:47 PM   #19
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Default Re: Frazier Nearly Destoryed Ali -

This is a great match-up and debate, one of the most interesting I have seen on ESB. Both men are fantastic, and this match-up is not clouded by huge differences in size which is great.

My initial response was Frazier to ultimately wear down Louis, but then I read Janitors compelling posts and I changed my mind.

But then Magoo has reverted me to my first impression.

On balance, Frazier by late attrition stoppage.
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Old 07-08-2007, 12:56 AM   #20
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Default Re: Frazier Nearly Destoryed Ali -

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Originally Posted by RAMPAGE0017
A broken jaw, and a stoppage in the mid-rounds, I believe.



In all honesty, I give Louis credit for doing what he's done in his time, but I'm just not big enough of a believer in him to think he would be able to beat many fighters who followed decades after his time in the sport. Definitely not Frazier.
joe frazier was not a very humble man. he rated himself #3. do you know which two fighters he picked before himself? joe louis and rocky marciano
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Old 07-08-2007, 02:48 AM   #21
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Default Re: Frazier Nearly Destoryed Ali -

There's no real comparison with Foreman-Frazier as George's chin is far better then Louis's. Saying that, Joe L wins this contest for me- Frazier's too easily hit to keep a superb puncher like Louis at bay, obviously he has a chance, Louis's chin wasn't that good but offensively he was dynamite. This = Louis TKO 8.
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Old 07-08-2007, 03:01 AM   #22
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Default Re: Frazier Nearly Destoryed Ali -

Conn did not move up to avoid anybody. You don;t move up to challenge Louis if u'r trying to avoid say Burley, that's just stupid. Conn moved up because he had alot of guts and wanted to be the best. Had Conn wanted he could have dominated the light-heavyweights for years
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Old 07-08-2007, 05:58 AM   #23
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Default Re: Frazier Nearly Destoryed Ali -

i say he brings out a black baby.
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Old 07-08-2007, 06:44 AM   #24
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Default Re: Frazier Nearly Destoryed Ali -

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Originally Posted by McGrain
And brought the very best out of the Greatest.

What about the other one? What does Frazier bring out of Joe Louis?
And Frazier was in such great shape after their first fight he defended against those legends Stander and Daniels ,then got bombed out by Foreman ,I think it was the other way round myself!
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Old 07-08-2007, 02:34 PM   #25
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Default Re: Frazier Nearly Destoryed Ali -

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Originally Posted by RAMPAGE0017
Tony Galento was a D level fighter, and Buddy Baer was no better than his brother. I'm just not a believer in that he had this phenominal power that everyone always goes on about.
It dose not take any less power to lift a D level 230lb fighter a foot canvas than it dose to lift Riddick Bowe a foot off the canvas. It is a matter of force vs gravity.
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Old 07-08-2007, 02:35 PM   #26
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Default Re: Frazier Nearly Destoryed Ali -

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Originally Posted by RAMPAGE0017
Since when did power become synonymous with offense?
Power is a critical component of ofense. Great finishers who lack power are few and far between.
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Old 07-08-2007, 02:38 PM   #27
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Default Re: Frazier Nearly Destoryed Ali -

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Originally Posted by My dinner with Conteh
There's no real comparison with Foreman-Frazier as George's chin is far better then Louis's.
I think that Foreman did have the better pure chin of the two but ironicaly Joe Louis might have been harder to stop.

Louis had incredible recuperative powers. He could be wobled and dropped but then he would be dangerous again in five seconds.
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Old 07-08-2007, 02:45 PM   #28
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Default Re: Frazier Nearly Destoryed Ali -

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Originally Posted by hobgoblin
joe frazier was not a very humble man. he rated himself #3. do you know which two fighters he picked before himself? joe louis and rocky marciano
When did he say this? I knew he said something to the effect that since he beat Ali, surely Joe Louis and Rocky could...
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Old 07-08-2007, 02:51 PM   #29
RAMPAGE0017
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Default Re: Frazier Nearly Destoryed Ali -

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Originally Posted by janitor
It dose not take any less power to lift a D level 230lb fighter a foot canvas than it dose to lift Riddick Bowe a foot off the canvas. It is a matter of force vs gravity.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ] A foot off the canvas? Let's not go too overboard.


Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
Power is a critical component of ofense. Great finishers who lack power are few and far between.
There's more to offense than knockout power.
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Old 07-08-2007, 02:52 PM   #30
miamite
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Default Re: Frazier Nearly Destoryed Ali -

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Originally Posted by janitor
I think that Foreman did have the better pure chin of the two but ironicaly Joe Louis might have been harder to stop.
.
I would have to disagree - considering the fact that Foreman fought better fighters, bigger punchers, and had a longer career and was still stopped a lesser amount of times than Louis. Plus, the one time Foreman did get stopped was largely due to exaustion, rather than purely his chin.

Foreman had the chin to rush out to the middle of the ring and be unafraid to slug and bomb out Joe Frazier. Louis did not.
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