Could any middleweight give the young Gene Tunney a fight?

[Sizzle]

Originally Posted by klompton

Tunney did not beat Greb four times. Tunney lost the first fight in one sided fashion. He lost the second but won what was called by many one of the worst decisions ever handed down in new york. Many called for investigations into the decision after the fight and even Tunney admits in one of his bios that there was something to the cries of fix which is why he gave Greb the third fight which he won legitimately. The fourth fight in Cleveland was won by Greb (two of the three cleveland papers had Greb winning the third had it a draw.) The fourth bout was a win for Tunney.

Tunney did not "lose" the second bout. A number of the neutral papers scored it for Tunney, some also perceived a one-sided affair in Tunneys favour. Some papers (Pittsburgh papers namely, surprise surprise) did score it for Greb though, but to call this a "loss" is pure fabrication.

[Mendoza]

Originally Posted by Sonny's jab

The NO DECISION era poses problems about what should be considered a win or a loss, for obvious reasons. And in some ways that's actually fairer than having decisions. Problem is, people have made newspaper decisions official, and historians argue over source credibility. The last two (4th and 5th) Tunney-Greb bouts were no decisions, I believe. The 4th is disputed by some.

I've read so many conflicting reports of the Tunney-Greb fights.

What I can gather is that the FIRST and the FIFTH are never disputed. Greb beat the crap out of Tunney first time around - one of the most brutal beatings ever - and Tunney beat Greb pretty good in their last go.

The 2nd and 3rd were rendered decisions in Tunney's favour, and disputed. Some have called the second one an outright robbery, I think.

Many record books, including my 1984 RING record book, have Tunney winning both the NDs by newspaper, as well as the 2nd and 3rd on decision, making him 4-1 with Greb.

Interestingly they list Tunney's fight with Loughran as a newspaper loss, while other record books have him winning.

Another problem with newspaper decisions, IMO, is the fact that many writers were biased and/or on the take. The same problem we have with judges.

While Greb won the first fight, lets me mindful that the Pittsburgh Windmill's fists did not do the initial damage, it was Greb's head that smashed into Tunney's eyes and nose in round one. The results were a great loss of blood and discomfort for Tunney. Then Greb went at Tunney hard for the rest of the fight. Some called for the fight to be stopped. Though Tunney lost, the crowed cheered him for his efforts under difficult circumstances. Tunney was tough as nails. Most fighters would have folded.

Under modern rules, this is a clash of heads and a NO COTNEST type of fight. However, the books have it as a clear decision win for Greb. So in actually the only clean win for Greb in the record books is not a clean win at all.

By the way, Tunney would have fought Greb again for a sixth time. Greb resfused and said Tunney was getting to big for him. I tend to view the five fight series in Tunney favor, but with no film and disputed results its hard to say for sure.

[mr. magoo]

I think Thomas Hearns, with his power and mobility could have beaten Tunney at just about any weight. The key thing about Tunney, is that he fought during a time, when most men did not know how to use the ring, and although Dempsey to some degree did, was coming off a layoff. Hearns could have decisioned him or even stopped him late.

[Mendoza]

Originally Posted by mr. magoo

I think Thomas Hearns, with his power and mobility could have beaten Tunney at just about any weight. The key thing about Tunney, is that he fought during a time, when most men did not know how to use the ring, and although Dempsey to some degree did, was coming off a layoff. Hearns could have decisioned him or even stopped him late.

Not a chance. Tunney was much bigger and good puncher, better than many of the guys who stopped Hearns.

[Sweet Pea]

Originally Posted by mr. magoo

I think Thomas Hearns, with his power and mobility could have beaten Tunney at just about any weight. The key thing about Tunney, is that he fought during a time, when most men did not know how to use the ring, and although Dempsey to some degree did, was coming off a layoff. Hearns could have decisioned him or even stopped him late.

[mr. magoo]

Originally Posted by Mendoza

Not a chance. Tunney was much bigger and good puncher, better than many of the guys who stopped Hearns.

Tunney had more power than Hagler or Barkley, and better skill than Leonard? I don't think so.

[janitor]

Originally Posted by Mendoza

While Greb won the first fight, lets me mindful that the Pittsburgh Windmill's fists did not do the initial damage, it was Greb's head that smashed into Tunney's eyes and nose in round one. The results were a great loss of blood and discomfort for Tunney.

It wasnt just a closed eye that impaired Tunney. Both Tunneys brows were split open one of them through an artery, and his nose was broken in two places.

There is no way that was all done by a single headbut.

[janitor]

Originally Posted by mr. magoo

Tunney had more power than Hagler or Barkley, and better skill than Leonard? I don't think so.

He certainly had more power than Hagler of Barkley.

The guy was a solid hitter at cruiserweight.

[janitor]

Originally Posted by Sizzle

Tunney did not "lose" the second bout. A number of the neutral papers scored it for Tunney, some also perceived a one-sided affair in Tunneys favour. Some papers (Pittsburgh papers namely, surprise surprise) did score it for Greb though, but to call this a "loss" is pure fabrication.

I think it is fair to say that the majority of observers called it for Greb.

It sure as hell cant be written down as a win for Tunney.

[mr. magoo]

I think Sugar Ray Robinson could have outboxed Tunney, assuming of course, they were fighting evenly within the same weight perameters.

[janitor]

Originally Posted by mr. magoo

I think Sugar Ray Robinson could have outboxed Tunney, assuming of course, they were fighting evenly within the same weight perameters.

Well they wont be.

Robinson is a natural junior middleweight while Tunney is a natural cruiserweight.

The only light heavyweight robinson ever took on was the light hitting Joey Maxim. There is a reason why he didnt fight Archie Moore.

[dpw417]

Originally Posted by janitor

Well they wont be.

Robinson is a natural junior middleweight while Tunney is a natural cruiserweight.

The only light heavyweight robinson ever took on was the light hitting Joey Maxim. There is a reason why he didnt fight Archie Moore.

I concur.
Archie Moore would be very bad news for any middleweight (when he was at light heavy)

[Russell]

No mention of Gerald McClellan?

He was 180 something pounds himself shortly before weigh ins.

[mr. magoo]

Originally Posted by janitor

Well they wont be.

Robinson is a natural junior middleweight while Tunney is a natural cruiserweight.

The only light heavyweight robinson ever took on was the light hitting Joey Maxim. There is a reason why he didnt fight Archie Moore.

Tunney spent a fair amount of his career at lightheavywieght during a time when the lines that separated middleweight and lightheavy were somewhat blurred. Also, archie Moore was a knockout artist in his day, whereas Tunney wasn't. He would try to use his game of out foxing and outmoving his opponent against the one man that he couldn't.

Robinson by decision.

[janitor]

[quote]

Originally Posted by mr. magoo

Tunney spent a fair amount of his career at lightheavywieght during a time when the lines that separated middleweight and lightheavy were somewhat blurred.

But he did outgrow the light heavyweight division. His peak weight was probably as a cruiser.

Also, archie Moore was a knockout artist in his day, whereas Tunney wasn't. He would try to use his game of out foxing and outmoving his opponent against the one man that he couldn't.

Dont doubt for a second that Tunney was a knockout artist at light heavyweight. He had problems with britle hands which limited his ability to capitalize on this early in his career but when his hands got better he was seriously cracking heads at 175 and caried his power prety well up to heavy.
Robinson by decision.