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Old 07-18-2012, 07:43 PM   #16
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Default Re: Andre Ward vs. Chad Dawson: Fools gold or the real jewelry?

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Originally Posted by SkillspayBills View Post
Now for him he might think he's going to be a beast at 168 but on other hand we've got the worry about draining, not being sharp etc.

Fighters like Dawson can get by not being sharp against lesser fighters, but miss a step with Ward and you then hand the initiative over to him. Dawson has to start well in this one, really take Ward out of his element.

It's got the makings of a special match up, it won't be a tear up but i don't want it to be.

Dawson has become in his last 3 fights and towards end of his fight with Pascal a more aggressive fighter. Seems to be stalking his prey, and even his mentality has changed a little. Talking with more intent and more nastiness. Compare that to the Dawson under Eddie who would drop his arse down, sit tight and counter brilliantly against his more aggressive foes. I'm intrigued to see how Scully gets Chad to operate in this one, The one good thing is he's light on his feet and has the ability to step out, and step back in without to much hassle unlike the likes of Green and Froch who couldn't do anything offensively.

We were on the bandwagon Slip , He let us down but i do like Chad.

I can't call a winner without looking into detail, this fight doesn't deserve rash predictions.
It's ganna be interesting, Mand. The weight has to be a factor. Chad is a big dude, very cut at light heavyweight and it wasn't that long ago that he was talking of moving up. I believe he just said what he said in the post fight interview, calling Ward out and saying he would go down without thinking, we know he's not the sharpest tool in the shed. He showed his hand and has pretty much been forced to concede everything to Ward. Because he's so desperate for big, career defining fights after fighting all those geriatrics.

My first instinct is of course to pick Ward. It's very hard to go against this kid. He's so complete, technically and mentally. My feeling is Chad has too much of a monotonous style to beat Ward. He's not instinctive enough in his approach and he sometimes thinks too much.

Ward will try and take away Chad's right hook. So he must work his left hand into play. Which isn't as good, imo. But it might be his best weapon to try and catch Ward on the inside with. Pretty much the only flaw, if we can call it that, is he can sometimes fall in.

But Ward is MUCH the smarter fighter aswell. Dawson, if things are not going his way can go into a shell and get lost, whilst Ward will adjust. Chad really needs to be creative in all areas of his game in this fight. I agree The Iceman has had a positive impact. He's known him for years, trained him as a kid and there seems to be a real connection. Something that Chad has never had with any trainer. He can be a tough guy to get through too. Sometimes a mental midget, if that's not being too harsh on him. Scully understands him.

On thing i've never liked about Chad is his tendency to go straight back from lead punches, especially the right hand. I expected Hopkins to catch with more than he did, but Chad seemed to cope with it ok. Although how much of that had to do with Hopkins age remains to be seen.

Chad for all skill and talent finds it hard to avoid 'ambush' punches from the outside. Like how Pascal did him. Remember also that Adamek dropped him with exactly this type of punch. Lead shot and Chad just goes back or stays in a straight line and gets caught consistantly. Glen Johnson caught him with similar punches for this reason, so did Diacanu even. We all know how well Ward fights on the inside, but i've got a hunch that he might do more on the outside in this fight. He's so versatile it's scary.

Looks like i'm counting Dawson out, lol. But you just know with his physical talent, southpaw jab and if he keeps up a high workrate, that alone is ganna win him rounds.
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Old 07-18-2012, 07:44 PM   #17
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Default Re: Andre Ward vs. Chad Dawson: Fools gold or the real jewelry?

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What I said was that their weigh-in weights from lowest to highest weren't that different. That's just true. Also true is that Dawson didn't have to come down to fight Ward. He didn't have to have anything at all to do with Ward or 168. Nothing. Zip. Zilch. He called Ward out and specified, yes, he specified on international television at 168 or 175, said it himself, and has mentioned since the very beginning of the tournament that made Ward a name that he had his eye on going back down to 168 for the winner of the S6. He himself has zero problem with 168. Because of this I have absolutely no reason to have a reservation about the weight. Just like if Martinez and Mayweather were to fight at 154 after years of 160 fights for Martinez, I have no reservation there either. Because he's always maintained he can go back down. People get far too hung up on this.
To a certain degree this can be true

Going back to your post , i know the particulars , i know that Dawson volunteered to go to 168 as the negotiations began , but physics are physics , he's not a SMW , if he was , he wouldn't be a 3 time world champion @175 , he would of always been a SMW , Dawson has outgrown the weight once already , he's only going down to a) suit Ward and b) absolutely make sure the fight happens

Its like Shane Mosley telling Manny Pacquiao he'll go to 140 , and I've no doubt that he meant every word and would of made 140

I get a hunch that Dawson will struggle to make 168 thats all I'm saying
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Old 07-18-2012, 07:55 PM   #18
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Default Re: Andre Ward vs. Chad Dawson: Fools gold or the real jewelry?

Will learn alot about Ward in this fight in terms of just how versatile and adaptable he can be. Dawson has the range and tools to potentially dilute some of his strengths and if can do that then his more fundamental straight down the line approach could hold sway.

Dawson couldn't have had a better "warm up" for the fight than Hopkins as well.
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Old 07-18-2012, 08:02 PM   #19
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Default Re: Andre Ward vs. Chad Dawson: Fools gold or the real jewelry?

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It's ganna be interesting, Mand. The weight has to be a factor. Chad is a big dude, very cut at light heavyweight and it wasn't that long ago that he was talking of moving up. I believe he just said what he said in the post fight interview, calling Ward out and saying he would go down without thinking, we know he's not the sharpest tool in the shed. He showed his hand and has pretty much been forced to concede everything to Ward. Because he's so desperate for big, career defining fights after fighting all those geriatrics.

My first instinct is of course to pick Ward. It's very hard to go against this kid. He's so complete, technically and mentally. My feeling is Chad has too much of a monotonous style to beat Ward. He's not instinctive enough in his approach and he sometimes thinks too much.

Ward will try and take away Chad's right hook. So he must work his left hand into play. Which isn't as good, imo. But it might be his best weapon to try and catch Ward on the inside with. Pretty much the only flaw, if we can call it that, is he can sometimes fall in.

But Ward is MUCH the smarter fighter aswell. Dawson, if things are not going his way can go into a shell and get lost, whilst Ward will adjust. Chad really needs to be creative in all areas of his game in this fight. I agree The Iceman has had a positive impact. He's known him for years, trained him as a kid and there seems to be a real connection. Something that Chad has never had with any trainer. He can be a tough guy to get through too. Sometimes a mental midget, if that's not being too harsh on him. Scully understands him.

On thing i've never liked about Chad is his tendency to go straight back from lead punches, especially the right hand. I expected Hopkins to catch with more than he did, but Chad seemed to cope with it ok. Although how much of that had to do with Hopkins age remains to be seen.

Chad for all skill and talent finds it hard to avoid 'ambush' punches from the outside. Like how Pascal did him. Remember also that Adamek dropped him with exactly this type of punch. Lead shot and Chad just goes back or stays in a straight line and gets caught consistantly. Glen Johnson caught him with similar punches for this reason, so did Diacanu even. We all know how well Ward fights on the inside, but i've got a hunch that he might do more on the outside in this fight. He's so versatile it's scary.

Looks like i'm counting Dawson out, lol. But you just know with his physical talent, southpaw jab and if he keeps up a high workrate, that alone is ganna win him rounds.
This is a good post

I was licking my lips at Ward Dawson when i first heard about it , the weight issue has diluted my appetite somewhat but not completely

Dawson " has to be busy " , its as plain and as simple as that , if he is , " he will cause Ward problems " , of that there is little doubt , Dawson is so technically correct it breaks my heart to see him fight one paced , if he was a busy fighter there would be few in the world who could live with him

If , and for me its a big if , the weight doesn't hurt him , this has to be the fight where he lets his shots go , this has to be that moment in his career that he is more active , and he's looking to hurt / cause damage to an opponent
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Old 07-18-2012, 08:10 PM   #20
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Default Re: Andre Ward vs. Chad Dawson: Fools gold or the real jewelry?

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It's ganna be interesting, Mand. The weight has to be a factor. Chad is a big dude, very cut at light heavyweight and it wasn't that long ago that he was talking of moving up. I believe he just said what he said in the post fight interview, calling Ward out and saying he would go down without thinking, we know he's not the sharpest tool in the shed. He showed his hand and has pretty much been forced to concede everything to Ward. Because he's so desperate for big, career defining fights after fighting all those geriatrics.

My first instinct is of course to pick Ward. It's very hard to go against this kid. He's so complete, technically and mentally. My feeling is Chad has too much of a monotonous style to beat Ward. He's not instinctive enough in his approach and he sometimes thinks too much.

Ward will try and take away Chad's right hook. So he must work his left hand into play. Which isn't as good, imo. But it might be his best weapon to try and catch Ward on the inside with. Pretty much the only flaw, if we can call it that, is he can sometimes fall in.

But Ward is MUCH the smarter fighter aswell. Dawson, if things are not going his way can go into a shell and get lost, whilst Ward will adjust. Chad really needs to be creative in all areas of his game in this fight. I agree The Iceman has had a positive impact. He's known him for years, trained him as a kid and there seems to be a real connection. Something that Chad has never had with any trainer. He can be a tough guy to get through too. Sometimes a mental midget, if that's not being too harsh on him. Scully understands him.

On thing i've never liked about Chad is his tendency to go straight back from lead punches, especially the right hand. I expected Hopkins to catch with more than he did, but Chad seemed to cope with it ok. Although how much of that had to do with Hopkins age remains to be seen.

Chad for all skill and talent finds it hard to avoid 'ambush' punches from the outside. Like how Pascal did him. Remember also that Adamek dropped him with exactly this type of punch. Lead shot and Chad just goes back or stays in a straight line and gets caught consistantly. Glen Johnson caught him with similar punches for this reason, so did Diacanu even. We all know how well Ward fights on the inside, but i've got a hunch that he might do more on the outside in this fight. He's so versatile it's scary.

Looks like i'm counting Dawson out, lol. But you just know with his physical talent, southpaw jab and if he keeps up a high workrate, that alone is ganna win him rounds.


Great post as ever Slip, Nice to see you back bro .

Will try look at it myself as fight draws closer, one thing though which does intrigue me is fact is Ward facing someone who may hold or have same amount of speed and also be a very good athlete himself. Ward hasn't had to face that. This will be a massive test for him, no walk in the park although the weight will be a nice handy advantage for him.

Glad you mentioned Chad's stepping back out in straight line, early in first Hopkins fight he did it. Ward will be a little quicker to the punch the Nard.
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Old 07-18-2012, 08:11 PM   #21
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Default Re: Andre Ward vs. Chad Dawson: Fools gold or the real jewelry?

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To a certain degree this can be true

Going back to your post , i know the particulars , i know that Dawson volunteered to go to 168 as the negotiations began , but physics are physics , he's not a SMW , if he was , he wouldn't be a 3 time world champion @175 , he would of always been a SMW , Dawson has outgrown the weight once already , he's only going down to a) suit Ward and b) absolutely make sure the fight happens

Its like Shane Mosley telling Manny Pacquiao he'll go to 140 , and I've no doubt that he meant every word and would of made 140


I get a hunch that Dawson will struggle to make 168 thats all I'm saying


If Martinez were a light middleweight he wouldn't have had every world title fight of his career, as well as almost everything he's been given positive recognition for, at middleweight. I don't find this a definite matter. Fighters often fight above their best or below their best for matters of opportunity. Eddie Chambers was always cruiser-capable but his whole career has been as a heavyweight, fighting heavyweights at a disadvantage, where he's been mostly successful in doing so. It doesn't mean he can't fight at cruiserweight. Just like Glen Johnson's credentials at light heavyweight didn't mean he couldn't drop down and viably compete at 168, as much so as he could at 175, at that stage of his career.




I don't believe it's like that really. He didn't even know who the winner would be when he was calling out the S6 winner from the start. It could've ended up the least popular name fighter for all he knew. We're talking about a young man who talked of moving down for whomever, not a cashing-out stage fighter desperately trying to score a certifiable under no other conceivable circumstance mega-payday against the most popular fighter in the entire sport. Yeah, I'll admit Dawson is looking for higher profile matches. But, hell, he's still got a score to settle with Pascal at 175, and youth on his side. He's not in that position to try and desperately drain himself for matches. It's clear he's not worried about it. Because he doesn't have that kind of motivation to pretend otherwise.


He might, of course. I can't say anymore than anyone else. But I think given the circumstances, I'm anticipating an unfair nitpicking of Ward for something that was presented to him willingly, not asked for, let alone pushed for, and shouldn't likely be a significant problem from my perspective.
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Old 07-18-2012, 08:40 PM   #22
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Default Re: Andre Ward vs. Chad Dawson: Fools gold or the real jewelry?

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Great post as ever Slip, Nice to see you back bro .

Will try look at it myself as fight draws closer, one thing though which does intrigue me is fact is Ward facing someone who may hold or have same amount of speed and also be a very good athlete himself. Ward hasn't had to face that. This will be a massive test for him, no walk in the park although the weight will be a nice handy advantage for him.

Glad you mentioned Chad's stepping back out in straight line, early in first Hopkins fight he did it. Ward will be a little quicker to the punch the Nard.
Cheers, bro.

The reason i think Ward might fight more on the outside, is because Dawson generally seems to be better when guys are coming to him. That's what's intriguing because if Ward fights the usual crowding fight and tries to handcuff Dawson he might walk into something. Dawson looks MUCH better and is a lot more effective when he's walking guys INTO punches. All the fights he looked stella in this has been the case. Large parts of the Adamek fight and the second Johnson and Tarver fights, i swear he looked like the second coming.

He put on masterpieces mainly because they were walking into his shots. When he has to be creative on the front foot he can be beaten to the punch and look like deer in headlights. He pursues opponents in LOOONG gallops allowing the distance between he and opponent to be too much and he's also better at making adjustments from fight to fight, rather than DURING the fight. So in that sense it's interesting to see what strategy Ward employs. Because as you say, Dawson is probabily one of the fews guys who can catch him on the inside and has the skill and physicality to go with him.

There's something in me that just can't get over the Pascal fight though and how he allowed an inferior fighter to pick pocket him like that, no matter how well Dawson has done since, although he beat old man river and didn't exactly look stella against Diacanu. I don't know, maybe it's because i was so let down.

Last edited by slip&counter; 07-18-2012 at 08:59 PM.
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Old 07-18-2012, 09:25 PM   #23
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Default Re: Andre Ward vs. Chad Dawson: Fools gold or The real jewellery?

Don't be sleeping on the Pascal Performance, fair enough he under performed.

But Jean Pascal would beat Andre Ward....

Ward stylistically has fought fighters he has always had a glaring advantage over.

And that has always been....."Speed". And in boxing, this is always a brutal advantage when you know how to use it...

He has not got that Advantage over Dawson or Pascal to the extent he had over Froch, Abraham, Miranda, Bika etc...

Dawson is not going to be confused or phased by the speed, even Hopkins who he just fought is just as fast as Ward. "In terms of movement, and Hand speed in my opinion"......watch their rematch, Hopkins was faster than you're average mofo.

I think Dawson has the speed and ring IQ to draw Ward into a fight.

And even abit drained, i think he will beat WARD!!!
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Old 07-18-2012, 10:47 PM   #24
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Default Re: Andre Ward vs. Chad Dawson: Fools gold or the real jewelry?

I just hope it doesn't turn out like Bradley vs Alexander
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Old 07-19-2012, 01:21 AM   #25
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Default Re: Andre Ward vs. Chad Dawson: Fools gold or The real jewellery?

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Don't be sleeping on the Pascal Performance, fair enough he under performed.

But Jean Pascal would beat Andre Ward....

Ward stylistically has fought fighters he has always had a glaring advantage over.

And that has always been....."Speed". And in boxing, this is always a brutal advantage when you know how to use it...

He has not got that Advantage over Dawson or Pascal to the extent he had over Froch, Abraham, Miranda, Bika etc...

Dawson is not going to be confused or phased by the speed, even Hopkins who he just fought is just as fast as Ward. "In terms of movement, and Hand speed in my opinion"......watch their rematch, Hopkins was faster than you're average mofo.

I think Dawson has the speed and ring IQ to draw Ward into a fight.

And even abit drained, i think he will beat WARD!!!
Pascal is not smart enough to beat a fighter like Ward. You need more than speed and power. Your want is a legitimate one though. People wanted to see Mayweather fight Judah for the exact same reason.

The thing is we already know Ward is a thinking man's fighter. He's used to close, elite competion. The only question is: is Chad smart enough at using his skills as Ward is at using his?

In a fight this close, it usually goes to the more proactive fighter. And given the fact that Chad has the tendency to go into punch hibernation, I gotta give Ward the edge.
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Old 07-19-2012, 04:04 AM   #26
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Default Re: Andre Ward vs. Chad Dawson: Fools gold or The real jewellery?

Wards greatest asset is his size hes and doesn't hit hard enough to keep Chad from walking through him. Dawson stops him hard and early! Then we get the Pascal rematch
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Old 07-19-2012, 05:11 AM   #27
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Default Re: Andre Ward vs. Chad Dawson: Fools gold or The real jewellery?

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Wards greatest asset is his size hes and doesn't hit hard enough to keep Chad from walking through him. Dawson stops him hard and early! Then we get the Pascal rematch
I don't know. Froch (a much tougher fighter imo) thought he was gonna walk through him too. Dawson's a much more skilled fighter, but even if he does walk through him (which I doubt), what's he gonna do after that? He doesn't overwhelm opponents with his punches.
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Old 07-19-2012, 05:22 AM   #28
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Default Re: Andre Ward vs. Chad Dawson: Fools gold or the real jewelry?

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If Martinez were a light middleweight he wouldn't have had every world title fight of his career, as well as almost everything he's been given positive recognition for, at middleweight. I don't find this a definite matter. Fighters often fight above their best or below their best for matters of opportunity. Eddie Chambers was always cruiser-capable but his whole career has been as a heavyweight, fighting heavyweights at a disadvantage, where he's been mostly successful in doing so. It doesn't mean he can't fight at cruiserweight. Just like Glen Johnson's credentials at light heavyweight didn't mean he couldn't drop down and viably compete at 168, as much so as he could at 175, at that stage of his career.




I don't believe it's like that really. He didn't even know who the winner would be when he was calling out the S6 winner from the start. It could've ended up the least popular name fighter for all he knew. We're talking about a young man who talked of moving down for whomever, not a cashing-out stage fighter desperately trying to score a certifiable under no other conceivable circumstance mega-payday against the most popular fighter in the entire sport. Yeah, I'll admit Dawson is looking for higher profile matches. But, hell, he's still got a score to settle with Pascal at 175, and youth on his side. He's not in that position to try and desperately drain himself for matches. It's clear he's not worried about it. Because he doesn't have that kind of motivation to pretend otherwise.


He might, of course. I can't say anymore than anyone else. But I think given the circumstances, I'm anticipating an unfair nitpicking of Ward for something that was presented to him willingly, not asked for, let alone pushed for, and shouldn't likely be a significant problem from my perspective.
Thats subjective on whether or not you believe Martinez can still safely make 54 , i imagine he's not weighed that since Cintron , he claims he can but how does he truly know he can make that weight , he's been a MW for what 3 years ??

He knew the winner of the S6 was going to be a more lucrative fight financially than anyone @175 barring Benard Hopkins

I see it as a shame Dawson straight away jumped into the fight at the lower weight , your right , if he was so quick to take the fight at that weight then 168 must not be an issue , but for a guy who looks so big @175 one can't help but think he's put himself in harms way for the standing of fighting " Andre Ward
"
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Old 07-19-2012, 05:40 AM   #29
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Default Re: Andre Ward vs. Chad Dawson: Fools gold or The real jewellery?

I’m looking forward to this, too. An intriguing, technical matchup between two guys in their prime.

My only gripe with it is that Ward couldn’t wait until he moved up, to make this fight. Getting Dawson to shed to 168 – even though it’s not guaranteed to makes things that easy – already tarnishes a potential win before it’s even happened.

But still, I can't wait for it. It'll be a good win for either guy - especially Dawson.
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Old 07-19-2012, 07:24 AM   #30
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Default Re: Andre Ward vs. Chad Dawson: Fools gold or The real jewellery?

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Don't be sleeping on the Pascal Performance, fair enough he under performed.

But Jean Pascal would beat Andre Ward....

Ward stylistically has fought fighters he has always had a glaring advantage over.

And that has always been....."Speed". And in boxing, this is always a brutal advantage when you know how to use it...

He has not got that Advantage over Dawson or Pascal to the extent he had over Froch, Abraham, Miranda, Bika etc...

Dawson is not going to be confused or phased by the speed, even Hopkins who he just fought is just as fast as Ward. "In terms of movement, and Hand speed in my opinion"......watch their rematch, Hopkins was faster than you're average mofo.

I think Dawson has the speed and ring IQ to draw Ward into a fight.

And even abit drained, i think he will beat WARD!!!
You REALLY believe someone as basic and one dimensional as Pascal would beat Ward, PK? Not taking the piss, as everyone is entitled to their opinion, but that fight would be a shutout in favour of Ward.

The reason i can't let go of the Dawson/Pascal fight is because that's a fight Dawson should've won and so many of his flaws were on display. You say Dawson has ring IQ, but in my opinion his ring smarts are suspect to say the least. I think it's one of his weaknessess.

Someone like Winky Wright is a lot smarter than him and in his prime would give Ward a tougher fight. Dawson should watch how Winky did his thing, although they're different styles.

Winky Wright, from the Vargas fight onwards employed a style where he would stay within arms distance of you and step to you with a hard jab, never letting you rest. He was boxing and pressuring you at the same time.

Dawson should have adapted and did a similar thing against Pascal. He should've understood what was going on and that Pascal was ambushing him, so he should've changed the distance along with the pressure. That's why i say Dawson can't make adjustments DURING a fight as well as he can from fight to fight.

Pascal was fighting in wind sprints. Meaning he would go hard, then literally rest for 30 seconds a pop. It was so obvious. Pascal was resting about 10-15ft away from Dawson. Dawson allowed him to get his oxygen after his burst of punches. Dawson could have pressured Pascal with his presence alone, the way Winky used to do.

I was very shocked and disappointed in Dawson that he allowed an inferior fighter to him beat him like that. And to me he's always had an asterix on his name after that. He isn't the same fighter when you you force him to come to you because he doesn't understand distance.

Look at someone like Carlos Monzon, he kind of looked basic. But you know what made him so effective? He understood distance and had much moxie. Chad does not come out of his comfort zone and if he doesn't in this fight it'll cost him.

To me Dawson/Pascal is more relevant when assessing this fight, than Hopkins/Dawson is. I think the Ward/Hopkins comparison is valid, but kind of a bit lazy too at this juncture. Ward hasn't really shown a lot of his best stuff yet and trust me Ward can fight so many different ways. Everyone is just got used to him fighting a crowding, inside fight but he can be equally as effective at mid to long range. He has a lot more tools in his box than Hopkins at this point.

Some people may get aggravated when I bring up the fighters I grew up watching. But I can’t help it. When i watched the 4th or 5th best fighter in the world as Dawson was at the time of Pascal fight, walk carefully after a man he had seriously hurt, in a fight he was losing that's something which is not easy to forget.

Dawson was fighting like he had 20 rounds to finish Pascal. Could you imagine someone like the great Michael Spinks attempting to finish a man like that? What about when Sweet Pea Whitaker, who was in a similar situation as Dawson, against a guy named Hurtado. Whitaker who is not even a puncher, attempted to kill Hurtado under similar circumstances. Chad Dawson had a chance to build something legendary in that fight and he failed because of his mental make up.

Dawson was fighting a young, strong in his prime fighter for the ring champisonship and he went out like a sucker. He had his opponent hurt, but stepped to Pascal half-asked and didn’t try to tear his head off. My feeling is Ward will take him to a similar position mentally and Dawson will HAVE to adjust. Some people might bring up the head butt in that, but that was secondary to me. If Dawson was finishing him like a fighter of his caliber is supposed to, Pascal would have been on the canvas, and you can’t head butt someone from the floor.

He'd better be on his A game mentally against Ward. And to be fair there are signs that he's realising what has to be done and he needs to get more urgent. As i said before, Scully is a good look for him and seems to be able to get through to him.

Also contrary to popular believe, Ward is not really THAT fast. His advantage over his opponents is more his technical ability, versatility, ring savy and not so much his speed, although that's not inconsiderable. He's really not THAT athletic though as some people seem to think. But he takes the play away from guys because technically he's so superior and smart. He understands when to throw and when to not. What he has is quickness of the mind and not neccesarily the speed of the body. Andre Dirrell is MUCH faster than Ward, but isn't the same fighter because he doesn't have the same quickness in his mind. The same anticipation and technical proficiency.

Don't get me wrong, Dawson CAN win this fight. I'm not counting him out, but Ward holds most of the important aces.

Last edited by slip&counter; 07-19-2012 at 07:40 AM.
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