Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


View Poll Results: Was Ali-Foreman Fixed?
Yes 10 8.33%
No 91 75.83%
Probably 7 5.83%
Probably Not 12 10.00%
Voters: 120. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 04-03-2013, 02:08 PM   #151
ThinBlack
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,384
vCash: 1000
Default Re: The Fix In The Jungle?

Ali was going to whup that ass, and deep down, George knew it.So he played to the media's wants and needs.
ThinBlack is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 04-04-2013, 08:11 AM   #152
Azzer85
ATG
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: West Midlands, UK
Posts: 5,531
vCash: 500
Default Re: The Fix In The Jungle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
Well you should know.
Azzer85 is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2013, 11:22 AM   #153
Longhhorn71
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,594
vCash: 1000
Default Re: The Fix In The Jungle?

Ali's key fights all had "smells" about them:
Liston 1
Liston 2
Foreman 1 in Africa
No rematch for Foreman

Plus Ali loses to Frazier I, a shaky points win over Frazier 2, and a true low point in the points loss to an amateur with 7 pro fights, Leon Spinks
Longhhorn71 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2013, 11:40 AM   #154
Stevie G
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London,England
Posts: 8,997
vCash: 1000
Default Re: The Fix In The Jungle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Longhhorn71 View Post
Ali's key fights all had "smells" about them:
Liston 1
Liston 2
Foreman 1 in Africa
No rematch for Foreman

Plus Ali loses to Frazier I, a shaky points win over Frazier 2, and a true low point in the points loss to an amateur with 7 pro fights, Leon Spinks


Liston 1 - Liston was confounded by the young Cassius Clay

Liston 2 - Liston was intimidated by Ali.

Foreman in Africa - George was outthought,outfoxed and outfought. Simples !!

No rematch for Foreman - Yes,George deserved a rematch,but after Norton III,Ali was nearly 35 and feeling it. He no longer wanted tough fights. He should have retired. In my opinion,Ali had nothing to fear from a second Foreman fight,though. He'd more than likely have beaten him again. Yes,Ali in 1976 wqs no longer the force he was in Zaire,but neither was Foreman.
Stevie G is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2013, 11:48 AM   #155
lufcrazy
requiescat in pace
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: England, Up North
Posts: 22,447
vCash: 330
Default Re: The Fix In The Jungle?

No fix, foreman threw everything he had at Ali who fought a perfect gameplan. Ali waited, made his own straight shots count and eventually the accumulation was enough to fell the big man.

I think up until manilla Ali was quite clearly the best hw in the world.

He squeaked by Young and then received a gift against Norton. I can't find enough rounds to give Ali in that fight and I've watched it about 3 times.
lufcrazy is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2013, 12:06 PM   #156
Stevie G
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London,England
Posts: 8,997
vCash: 1000
Default Re: The Fix In The Jungle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lufcrazy View Post
No fix, foreman threw everything he had at Ali who fought a perfect gameplan. Ali waited, made his own straight shots count and eventually the accumulation was enough to fell the big man.

I think up until manilla Ali was quite clearly the best hw in the world.

He squeaked by Young and then received a gift against Norton. I can't find enough rounds to give Ali in that fight and I've watched it about 3 times.


I agree. Up to,and including, Manilla Ali was still the number one. How I wish that he'd retired straight afterwards.
Stevie G is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2013, 01:36 PM   #157
MagnaNasakki
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,829
vCash: 1000
Default Re: The Fix In The Jungle?

George talks a lot of shit.


You want the real story? Just go talk to him, man. At one of his grill things, or whatever. He's an honest enough man when the camera's aren't rolling

"I got whupped. I punched myself out."

Claiming a fix with no concrete evidence(Frankly, all the Ali fights accused of being fixes have no evidence), demonstrates an agenda, and lessens credibility.

Oh the ropes were loose. Tough shit. The ropes are too loose on a fairly regular basis. It's boxing. We love it, but very often, it's not uniform, or even managed competently by the people in charge of events. I'd say the ropes have been laughably loose for me on ten different occasions. If you accuse Ali's camp of doing this on eyewitness testimony, then he gets the credit of knowing EXACTLY how to beat Foreman, and concocting the fight plan to do so. All OTHER testimony indicates he improvised and everyone in his corner was terrified in the second round.

I've never read anything convincing about the Liston fights. Even the accusations about Liston II don't make sense. That was an epic screw up by the referee, nothing more. Liston stood up, and continued to fight. Sonny was swinging to maim in the first fight. Doesn't make any sense.

Ali beat Frazier clearly in the second bout.

So, what do you have? I have been with enough lawyers to know that the claims of the guy who got his ass whipped aren't credible evidence. What have you ACTUALLY got?
MagnaNasakki is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2013, 01:40 PM   #158
lufcrazy
requiescat in pace
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: England, Up North
Posts: 22,447
vCash: 330
Default Re: The Fix In The Jungle?

I've just watched Ali v Norton 3 again. Very close fight and I think it isn't a huge stretch scoring it to Ali. It can easily be scored for either man imo.

Ali probably just about deserved his number 1 spot until.retirement because despite him fading, noone was really.doing any better than he was.

Holmes struggled with Norton and Shavers also, Young fell off the wagon and Foreman retired.

I hate to completely backtrack on things I've previously posted but I currently think that trying to rewrite history and whilst some will have thought Norton and Holmes were the best two fighters when they fought each other, pretty much everybody would have declared Ali as the man to beat still.

Did he have a series of hard fought close fights, absolutely. And he definitely got the benefit of the doubt in each of them but none of the decisions were particularly bad imo.
lufcrazy is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2013, 02:05 PM   #159
John Galt
Gatekeeper
ESB Full Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 414
vCash: 500
Default Re: The Fix In The Jungle?

edit

Last edited by John Galt; 03-28-2014 at 12:24 AM.
John Galt is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2013, 04:39 PM   #160
MagnaNasakki
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,829
vCash: 1000
Default Re: The Fix In The Jungle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
Anyone who has put a ring together can tell you it it easy to have the ropes too loose. All it takes is for the ring to be out of square or for the posts to not be plumb. That's why we often see officials at fights tightening the turnbuckles before fights. Sometimes the turnbuckles are already as tight as they'll go and they either have to ignore the ropes or stop the fights long enough to shorten the ropes. Then, it's not unusual to have the ring posts leaning inward because the top rope is so tight.

I usually check the ring at fights and when I see straight ring posts, sufficiently tight ropes, with room left on the turnbuckle for adjustment, I'm impressed by whoever put the ring together. Most of the time, the ring won't look like that.
You are a good manager, man. I fought a fight on an undercard early in my career, and I thought the ring felt extremely funny.

Very next fight, it collapsed, a fighter broke his leg. Dodged that bullet. Was PISSED at my management.

People who embrace conspiracy crack me up. Reminds me of a quote, something like "Conspiracy theorists make the largest mistake of all; They assume the government is competent."

It's the same in boxing, people. If it was full of shadowy geniuses manipulating every outcome and predicting the future, boxing would run a damn sight better-See the WWE. As it stands, its a chaotic sport where strange shit happens every other week, managers are routinely dumb, and promoters make constant legal errors. We're fighters, sons of fighters, friends of fighters, and crooked lawyers, by and large. Some are fans who only want what is best for the sport. I laugh out loud when people insinuated that the people who run this sport could possibly be THIS good at manipulating outcomes when they can't even write an exclusive contract that is binding or properly set up a damn ring.

Sorry for the rant. I've given this many times before. Usually when Teddy Atlas says something stupid.
MagnaNasakki is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2013, 05:28 PM   #161
BoxingFanPhil
Journeyman
ESB Jr Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 165
vCash: 500
Default Re: The Fix In The Jungle?

This is ridiculous. Ali, for all that he was and wasn't, was a cunning fighter. He was a master of mind games, and his tactics were often absolutely superb. He knew how to steal a round, and he knew how to spoil when he needed to in most circumstances.

For all the times I have watched this fight I have always thought Ali was both well ahead and well in control by the time Foreman got dropped. Foreman had leathered away on Ali with absolutely everything - with the ferocity of the blows declining steadily as the fight continued. Foreman would need to be superman to sustain that for the whole fight. The famous images of Ali hitting Foreman and the sweat spraying off his head tells it's own story.

Fight was not fixed.
BoxingFanPhil is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2013, 05:47 PM   #162
BillB
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 725
vCash: 500
Default Re: The Fix In The Jungle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki View Post
I've never read anything convincing about the Liston fights. Even the accusations about Liston II don't make sense. That was an epic screw up by the referee, nothing more. Liston stood up, and continued to fight. Sonny was swinging to maim in the first fight. Doesn't make any sense.
Epic screw up?

Which makes more sense to you:

1. Walcott was paid the throw the fight Ali's way.

2. After 30 years in the ring, Walcott didn't understand the neutral corner rule.

There's no doubt in my mind which of the above is more likely.
BillB is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2013, 06:14 PM   #163
lufcrazy
requiescat in pace
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: England, Up North
Posts: 22,447
vCash: 330
Default Re: The Fix In The Jungle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillB View Post
Epic screw up?

Which makes more sense to you:

1. Walcott was paid the throw the fight Ali's way.

2. After 30 years in the ring, Walcott didn't understand the neutral corner rule.

There's no doubt in my mind which of the above is more likely.
That's a very sound argument against the fix.

I fully believe Walcott is more likely to be a shit ref than a corrupt ref.

The simple.answer is usually the correct one. In this case the simple answer is a mistake made by a man who should never have been Redding such an event.
lufcrazy is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2013, 06:14 PM   #164
MagnaNasakki
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,829
vCash: 1000
Default Re: The Fix In The Jungle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillB View Post
Epic screw up?

Which makes more sense to you:

1. Walcott was paid the throw the fight Ali's way.

2. After 30 years in the ring, Walcott didn't understand the neutral corner rule.

There's no doubt in my mind which of the above is more likely.
Fighter's aren't often intelligent guys.

If Walcott was so cunning, he did an awful job. Count the man out when he went down; Had his count been a half a second fast, it'd have looked perfectly legitimate. Letting the man get up, keep fighting, looking at Nat Fleischer ringside, and going OH SHIT and stopping the fight isn't a fix.

If he was paid to throw that fight, and it's anything like the guys who tried to fix fights where I come from in the 80's, he'd have been knee-capped for even coming THAT close to screwing up the outcome.
MagnaNasakki is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2013, 06:19 PM   #165
MagnaNasakki
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,829
vCash: 1000
Default Re: The Fix In The Jungle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoxingFanPhil View Post
This is ridiculous. Ali, for all that he was and wasn't, was a cunning fighter. He was a master of mind games, and his tactics were often absolutely superb. He knew how to steal a round, and he knew how to spoil when he needed to in most circumstances.

For all the times I have watched this fight I have always thought Ali was both well ahead and well in control by the time Foreman got dropped. Foreman had leathered away on Ali with absolutely everything - with the ferocity of the blows declining steadily as the fight continued. Foreman would need to be superman to sustain that for the whole fight. The famous images of Ali hitting Foreman and the sweat spraying off his head tells it's own story.

Fight was not fixed.
Foreman hadn't been boxing for very long. He was still green, believe it or not; He'd have a good number of fights, but he was about as experienced then as Deontay Wilder is now.

He won fights with power, strength, and ferocity. A more vicious bomber at heavyweight we probably haven't seen.

But he wasn't composed, had no idea how to pace himself, and his defense was woefully undeveloped. Him gassing isn't only perfectly reasonable, it makes sense.

Fighters like Ali learn how to fight over the distance. It's not a matter of running enough. It's a matter of knowing how, and of staying calm. No way a fighter like George Foreman had 15 in him fighting like that. No way. You can hear his grunts when he is whaling away in the 7th. He's desperate, he's tired, and he's wild.

If he was drugged before the ring walk, we'd have seen it work in the 1st or 2nd round.
MagnaNasakki is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:34 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013